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Army List: Chaos

 Post subject: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:28 pm 
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Hi!

This thread is for posting on anything related to the revision of the Chaos Book.

Those whom wish to supervise this list, please state so in your post and compile an editable document of the changes that are posted.

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Ok, I'm going to stick my neck out by saying that Khorne Daemon Engines need to be reduced in price.

Why?

Land Raiders are a good comparable equivalent with similar saves and cost 250 points for 3 (as opposed to 300 for three as per daemon engines). Their armament isn't as good as daemon engines but they have a superior range. Land Raiders can usually move on advance on turn 1 and get into a decent position to FF the rest of the game.

With the puny 50cm range and awful 15cm move rate, the daemon engines have little chance of finding themselves in range if they advance in turn 1 so the usual option is to charge in turn 1, giving up the chance to fire. Because they are vehicles of Khorne that means in turn 2 they have to advance. What this means is that before the engines get a chance to open fire the enemy has usually had two opportunities to kill them. Not good.

I've read on here that it is the experience of many Khorne (& Chaos?) players that winning a battle is a rare event. This suggests that there is something far wrong with the rules as they presently stand. Khorne have great infantry, but if something isn't done about this, players such as myself will leave their lovely engines at home and simply use the demons with backup from Titans.

Options: Increase move rate to 20 cm, free up the movement restrictions (ie allow them to FF after at least one turn of movement) and price them at 250 same as Land Raiders.
Or reduce them down to 200, while their save is decent, they're essentially cannon fodder that are unlikely to do anything in the fight.

While on the subject, my recollection was that Cannon of Khorne used to be able to FF. This should be reinstated. While I understand the bloodlust fluff, cannon are units which in anyone's understanding of warfare would never be moved around the battlefield (unless to get into a decent position from the start). Please don't make them do this silly advance or charge business.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:27 pm 
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Hi!

Bissler all you need to do is layout on this thread what you propose and what it is replacing side by side for people to comment on. I think we'll be doing a lot of points tweaking as well as unit tweaking, so I'd post straight away what you think should be done and people will comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Like so?

Proposed rule change:

Daemon Engines:

Currently: they cost 300 points for any 3, move 15cm and must always be given advance or charge orders.

Revision: Daemon Engines only have to move on advance or charge on the first turn. Thereafter they can choose any orders (including First Fire). Move increased to 20cm. Points value remains at 300 points.



Proposed rule change:

Cannon of Khorne:

Currently: they cost 200 points for 3 and must always be given advance and charge orders.

Revision: Cannon of Khorne only have to move on advance of charge on the first turn. Thereafter they can choose any orders (including First Fire). Points value remains at 200 points.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:54 pm 
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Hi!

Yup, that looks very good, thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:21 am 
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Thanks for taking this on The Bissler, as I was also going to comment on Cannons of Khorne.

The Cannons never had the no first fire rule in second edition, so my suggestion would be to actually change the Daemon rule for Khorne, but the problem is that the Daemon Engine rule forces them to have behave in this way. My suggestion would be to remove the Daemon Engine rule for them, and just allow them to have first fire at all times.

Khorne may be bloodthirsty, but his forces are not stupid. Cannons of Khorne generate death and destruction from afar, so it's entirely fitting that they have first fire orders.

As for the Daemon Engines, they actually are designed for close range combat/close combat, so I don't think that they would, or should, be able to have first fire orders, but I do agree that they are currently a bit pricey. A speed increase is possible, but the Brass Scorpion is meant to be a faster moving Daemon Engine, and at 20cm, it's already fast enough.

I think that it's easiest just to cut the cost of the Daemon Engines by 50 points, and leave their rules the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:05 am 
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Cannons of Khorne may generate death and destruction from a far but it wouldn't stop the daemon trapped in side trying to get close to the enemy, just look at the Hell Cannon in WFB!

So an option would be to do some sort of control test for daemon engines (like the hell cannon in WFB). If it is passed they can be given orders normally otherwise they must be given charge orders and move full rate towards the nearest enemy?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Except that the Cannon of Khorne doesn't have a Daemon in it. It is not a Daemon Engine, or it least it wasn't in SM2/Renegades/Titan Legions. All it does it tap into warp energy to power it's blast. Why it was changed, I have no idea, but I agree that it should not be categorized as a Daemon Engine.

The old (2nd edt) rule for the Cannon was that they could only shoot on First Fire, as it takes the extra effort to summon the energies. This seems balanced to me.

Thus what I'm proposing is that the designation of Daemon Engine be removed from the Cannon, and the restriction that it may only shoot if on FF be reinstated. If there were good reasons for changing these way back then, feel free to mention them.

As to the actual Khorne Daemon engines, it's been a while since I've done much with them, but they seemed fine to me, I think. I agree with Irisado above that if their Move values are increased it would have to be by +5cm and not just flat making all be 20cm, as the Brass Scorpion is currently 20cm, and it's intended to be (slightly) faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:09 pm 
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I agree about the Cannons of Khorne. I think that the simplest thing to do, both in terms of the background and rules, would be to remove the Daemon Engine rule from them. You're right to point out that they were not classed as Daemon Engines in second edition, and their background never suggested that they were. That would solve the problem that they currently face very easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:06 pm 
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Hmm what about Doomblasters as well as they're definitely designated as Daemon Engines of Khorne but are certainly artillery as well

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:33 pm 
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Llamahead wrote:
Hmm what about Doomblasters as well as they're definitely designated as Daemon Engines of Khorne but are certainly artillery as well


Good point! My only guess is that they made 'em advance to weaken their otherwise pretty impressive power.

Just realised, if I can squeeze my plan to make everything move and fire at once, all of my major issues with Chaos forces would be rectified! That does it, I'm going to make it official!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:07 am 
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Llamahead wrote:
Hmm what about Doomblasters as well as they're definitely designated as Daemon Engines of Khorne but are certainly artillery as well


True, but the Doom Blaster was designed and initially presented as a Daemon Engine. It is working as intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:40 pm 
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The Doom Blaster was always a Daemon Engine, and I think that it should remain so. It's a pretty lousy Daemon Engine in my opinion, and I never take it, but some people like it, so it should remain as it is.

Cannons of Khorne just don't work at all if they cannot go on first fire orders, so I maintain that they just need to lose the Daemon Engine rule, and then all that needs doing to the Daemon Engines is to experiment with lowering their cost a little.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Hi!

Status Update:

If you choose to "lead" a particular army, just post a message on the respective army thread as to where you are on reading the books for corrections and such.

This is just to get an idea to see where we are all at. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Hi!

It seems the SM, Eldar and IG are getting most of the attention so far, but rest assured we'll give chaos some "lovin'" soon enough. There is always something to sort out with them.

Primarch

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