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Army List: Chaos

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:27 am 
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Maybe make it that Khorne daemon engines on first fire get -1 to hit to show it is difficult for them to accurately fire while standing still?


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:46 am 
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Hi!

Well, we figured out some eldar issues, so it seems we'll shift to this one and see if it can resolved.

While I'm not much for tradition in any form the lack of first fire is very ingrained in the rules as far back as there has been second edition and net epic.

I'm doubtful any solution that allows first fire to dedicated khornite units will probably be ignored.

If giving first fire is not the best options and "instinctual/aggressive" maneuvers are not favored, perhaps the only recourse is point cost reduction.

Is a reduction to 250 for demon engines enough? I would not be opposed to lowering them to 200.

Thoughts?

Banelord, if kept as is what would the price be? 600? Less?

If I recall all agree that the cannons of khorne are no longer demon engines removing the first fire restriction.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:01 am 
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250 points for 3 Khorne Daemon engines sounds correct, not cheap but interesting.

For the Banelord, maybe droppping the "Daemon Engine Rule" and leaving it as a Greater Daemon embedded in a warlord titan shape. Would not benefit from the Khorne Daemon Engine Rule and leaving it at 700 points but it could become a Company Card as the Lord Of Battle.

I'm OK to allow the Cannon of Khorne to first fire and we could remove the "Daemon Engine" for them.

Another point to check are the standard Chaos Fliers:

- Hell Blade (250 points for 3)
- Hell Talon (350 points for 1)
- Dreadclaw (100 points for 1)

Honestly, Dreadclaw is a better choice than Hell Blades and Hell Talons with its 2 shots at 75cm 5+ TSM -2: it's a flying Land Raider!

Hell Blades are supposed to be the best interceptors in the game (thanks to its +8 CAF) BUT how can you really intercept enemy fliers ? Fliers can not be pinned at all so if can not keep your Hell Blades as your last activation (or if your opponent made the mistake of moving its flyers before yours), you'll never intercept anything. Even more, just 1 detachment of AA ground units and you are stuck. Your opponent will leave it's expensive flyers in AA firing range and it will be too dangerous for your interceptors to enter in this area...

Hell Talons are way too expensive for what they can do. I know it's bad to compare units from different armies but you easily understand why eldar players field a Phoenix Bomber and why Chaos player never play Hell Talon.


Last edited by scream on Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Maybe make it that Khorne daemon engines on first fire get -1 to hit to show it is difficult for them to accurately fire while standing still?


Nooooo :P!

In addition to what I said previously, most Daemon Engines (The Doomblaster is the obvious exception) wouldn't really benefit that much from being able to use first fire orders anyway. They're much more dangerous at short range, and in close combat, so holding back isn't an option for them. The rush forward and first fire in subsequent turns tactics also wouldn't be that much use, because, unlike infantry, they cannot exploit buildings for additional protection.

They just need to be cheaper. 200 for 3 is probably too cheap though Primarch ;). They are pretty tough if you deploy them correctly, and take multiple units.

Regarding the Cannons of Khorne, it was agreed to remove the Daemon Engine rule. They never used to be Daemon Engines after all, so I don't know why the rule was added in the first place.

The Banelord could lose the Daemon Engine rule, or we could just cut the cost. The latter probably makes the most sense. We just need to agree how much of cost reduction not being able to first fire would be for a Warlord Titan. I think a fairly substantial one, but not something ridiculous. I'll have to consider it further.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:00 pm 
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Hi!

So far we have lowering the cost of daemon engines to 250 and removing the demon engine designation for cannons of khorne being favored.

Only the banelord remains to be hashed out. I would rather just cut his points and leave it as a demon engine (cost perhaps 600).

Although making it a greater demon of some sort is also attractive.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:06 pm 
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600 points is very low, cost of a Lord of Battle equiped with firing weapons would be close and the LoB does not have 6 shields to protect it.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:23 pm 
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scream wrote:
600 points is very low, cost of a Lord of Battle equiped with firing weapons would be close and the LoB does not have 6 shields to protect it.


Hi!

True, but then again, perhaps the LOB should be worth less.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:23 pm 
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Lowering the cost of a Banelord any below 650 would be too much. Personally, I think it's fine at 700 points as it is. It is cheaper than just about any useful configuration of Warlord Titan, and is 80 points less than a Warlord built with comparable weaponry (Two Multi-Launchers to simulate the Havoc Missiles at 75 ea, Weapon Head at 25, Hellstrike at 50, Doomfist ~30 (more than just a Power Fist, but less than the Eldar Power Fist), & Chaos Tail at 25: total of +280 for cost of 780) without rounding. I may be over valuing the Havoc Missiles, but even so saving 50 to 100 points off list should be enough to compensate for Khorne Daemon Engine rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:24 pm 
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Almost forgot. The LoB should not be reduced either, IMHO, as it IS a Greater Daemon and is thus not restricted from firing on First fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:31 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Almost forgot. The LoB should not be reduced either, IMHO, as it IS a Greater Daemon and is thus not restricted from firing on First fire.


Hi!

This is true.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:32 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Lowering the cost of a Banelord any below 650 would be too much. Personally, I think it's fine at 700 points as it is. It is cheaper than just about any useful configuration of Warlord Titan, and is 80 points less than a Warlord built with comparable weaponry (Two Multi-Launchers to simulate the Havoc Missiles at 75 ea, Weapon Head at 25, Hellstrike at 50, Doomfist ~30 (more than just a Power Fist, but less than the Eldar Power Fist), & Chaos Tail at 25: total of +280 for cost of 780) without rounding. I may be over valuing the Havoc Missiles, but even so saving 50 to 100 points off list should be enough to compensate for Khorne Daemon Engine rules.



Hi!

So is 650 points agreeable?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:33 pm 
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I've been away for a week so thought I'd get up to speed. I'd be delighted to see the Demon Engines reduced to 250 points for three. I'm also pleased to see that we are all in agreement that the Cannon of Khorne can First Fire.

As I've never fielded one, I don't want to get involved with the Banelord discussion, I'll leave that to others to comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:35 am 
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Maybe it's a typo in the Standard Chaos List:

- Cultist Rider detachment: 5 Cultist Rider Stands cost 100 points with stats:
20cm caf +1 not firing weapons

- Bikers detachment (not Chaos Marine Bike det) cost 100 points with stats:
25cm caf +1 Bolter (15cm/1/6+/0)

For the same cost, you have the same number of stands but gain 5cm move and a bolter on bikers.

Proposition:
- upgrade the caf for cultist rider to +2


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:50 pm 
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Upgrading the CAF on the Cultist Rider sounds like a good idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Chaos
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Agreed; an Imperial Bike which gets +2 CAF and comes with the pishy Bolter costs 125 points so this sounds reasonable.

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