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Points formula values for Titan Legions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=27316
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Author:  primarch [ Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

Hi!

Why is the AMO mars so costly when compared to the others of its type?

Primarch

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

Primarily the Sonic Disruptor, though it's Hit Locations value is the best of the three of the AMO.

Specifically, as to Hit Locations:
Armageddon has a value of 16.072
Golgotha has a value of 13.695
Mars has a value of 16.715
Remember, these values are before being multiplied by 3 for the Armor Save value.

The weapons on the three models are their primary difference.
Armageddon has a total weapons value of 257 (36 for Nova Cannon Pulse, 209 for Nova Cannon Maximal, and 12 for Lascannon)
Golgotha has a total weapons value of 219 (207 for Hellfire Missiles and 12 for Lascannon)
Mars has a total weapons value of 822 (810 for Sonic Disruptor and 12 for Lascannon)

The Sonic Disruptor can put a Large Teardrop template (15) at any place in the battle within Line Of Sight (*6). All models at least half under the template are hit on 2+ (*3) that Ignores Cover (*1.5). The TSM is odd. Any normal Save is ignored, and all models save at 5+, except for models with Shields (or presumably, Fields) just lose one Shield. I'm considering this to be a *2, as this weapon will (I think) most often be used against models with really good Armor Save values in preference to Infantry or other models with no Save. That's just my opinion though. Still, that brings it's calculation to: 15 *6 *3 *2 *1.5 = 810.

Author:  primarch [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Primarily the Sonic Disruptor, though it's Hit Locations value is the best of the three of the AMO.

Specifically, as to Hit Locations:
Armageddon has a value of 16.072
Golgotha has a value of 13.695
Mars has a value of 16.715
Remember, these values are before being multiplied by 3 for the Armor Save value.

The weapons on the three models are their primary difference.
Armageddon has a total weapons value of 257 (36 for Nova Cannon Pulse, 209 for Nova Cannon Maximal, and 12 for Lascannon)
Golgotha has a total weapons value of 219 (207 for Hellfire Missiles and 12 for Lascannon)
Mars has a total weapons value of 822 (810 for Sonic Disruptor and 12 for Lascannon)

The Sonic Disruptor can put a Large Teardrop template (15) at any place in the battle within Line Of Sight (*6). All models at least half under the template are hit on 2+ (*3) that Ignores Cover (*1.5). The TSM is odd. Any normal Save is ignored, and all models save at 5+, except for models with Shields (or presumably, Fields) just lose one Shield. I'm considering this to be a *2, as this weapon will (I think) most often be used against models with really good Armor Save values in preference to Infantry or other models with no Save. That's just my opinion though. Still, that brings it's calculation to: 15 *6 *3 *2 *1.5 = 810.


Hi!

It is indeed a powerful weapon and unit, which should be more expensive than the others. I think a value of 810 would be much better as it is still significantly more costly than its kindred, but not over a 1000 points.

Primarch

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

Sorry if I was not clear. 810 is just the cost of the weapon itself. The rest of the model brings it over 1000.

Specifically:
Base: 15
Move: 6 (3*1*2)
Save: 50.145 (16.715 *3)
CAF: 80 ((15+3+1+2-5)*5)
Sonic Disruptor: 810
Lascannon: 12
PD8 & Psychic Save 4+: 23.1
15+6+50.145+80+810+12+23.1 = 996.2
Adjusted by Morale is 1394.7
Adjusted by Special is 1115.8 which rounds to 1116.

Thus it earns all of it's cost. Assuming we don't tweak any of the modifiers.

Author:  primarch [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Sorry if I was not clear. 810 is just the cost of the weapon itself. The rest of the model brings it over 1000.

Specifically:
Base: 15
Move: 6 (3*1*2)
Save: 50.145 (16.715 *3)
CAF: 80 ((15+3+1+2-5)*5)
Sonic Disruptor: 810
Lascannon: 12
PD8 & Psychic Save 4+: 23.1
15+6+50.145+80+810+12+23.1 = 996.2
Adjusted by Morale is 1394.7
Adjusted by Special is 1115.8 which rounds to 1116.

Thus it earns all of it's cost. Assuming we don't tweak any of the modifiers.


Hi!

Ah, gotcha. I do agree the sonic disruptor is one heck of a "cheese" weapon. Its overly favored against the other AMO vehicles, so it should cost a lot more.

Primarch

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated to V0.4.

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated to V0.41

Added Morale adjustments to Model Value

Removed adjustments for Command and Special formations

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated to V0.42

Fixed an error with the Forward Observer with Rhino. I had just been using a normal Command Rhino, not one where the cost was adjusted for Stealth. It now is.

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated for Grey Knights error.

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

In looking through the Titan Legion lists for weapon cost errors, I've noticed that I have the Hellstorm and Plasma Annihilator on the Imperator figured using average or slightly under average rate (*20/41) for the Annihilator. The latter seems to be an average of something, but I'm not sure just what.

I also seem to forgotten that many of the Imperator's weapons have fire arcs other than 180.

I guess the question for the two main weapons is should they be calculated using average number of shots per turn, the maximum possible number of shots per turn, or some other ratio? This gets trickier if we try to take the variable number of Plasma generated into account. If no Plasma is allocated to one of these weapons, then it cannot fire. This should be taken into account as well. Probably by taking the average between zero shots (due to no Plasma) and either the average number of possible shots or the maximum possible number of shots.

_ _ Hellstorm
This weapon has a 90 degree fire arc, 100cm range, fires 6cm barrage, hits on 3+, TSM -2. It also has limited ammo, 10 shots per battle as a maximum. Thus for the formula, this is: Barrage (3.6), 100cm (*2), 3+ (*2), -2 (*3), Arc90 (*0.5), 10 shots (*0.2*10) = 3.6*2*2*3*0.5*0.2*10 = 43.2 per shot.
I can see a few reasonable ways to value this.
_ The current way, used up to V0.42, was to count it as getting an average of 2 shots per turn. This was probably figured by taking the average of all possible number of Plasma counters that can be allocated (IE, zero through four). Doing this would give the weapon a revised cost of 86.4, which is identical to it's V0.42 cost.
_ The maximum possible number of shots per turn is 4. Using that would give the weapon a cost of 172.8.
_ Assuming that it always gets fired each turn, the average number of shots per turn would be 2.5 ((1+2+3+4)/4), which would make the cost for the weapon be 108.
Personally, I prefer the current way as it is the most mathematically accurate in representing the probable use of the weapon.

_ _ Plasma Annihilator
This weapon has a 90 degree fire arc, range of either 100 or 150cm, fires either 2 or 3 shots per counter, hits on either 4+ or 3+, TSM of -4 or -6. In other words, for each Green Plasma placed, it is 100cm, 2, 4+, -4; and for each Red it is: 150, 3, 3+, -6. Since this is variable, putting a value to it is trickier.
The current method I have in place is to add together both weapon values and then multiply by 20/41. There are two problems I'm having with this method. The first is that I do not recall what the 20/41 represents. The second is that the weapon values are just added together and not averaged in any way (aside from the 20/41). Using this method gives a result of 152, or 76 after the Fire Arc is adjusted for.
_ As this weapon can have a maximum of four counters placed on it (regardless of their color), the most logical way to calculate this (that I can think of just now) would be to mirror the 'current' method for the Hellstorm for each color of counter and then find the average. Doing this gives:
_ _ Green: This profile is base (2), 100cm (*2), 2 shots (*2), hits 4+ (*1.5), TSM -4 (*5), Arc90 (*0.5) = 2*2*2*1.5*5*0.5 = 30 per counter. Using an average of 2 counters per turn (as above, (0+1+2+3+4)/5 = 2) gives a value of 60.
_ _ Red: This profile is base (2), 150cm (*3), 3 shots (*3), hits 3+ (*2), TSM -6 (*7), Arc90 (*0.5) = 2*3*3*2*7*0.5 = 126 per counter. An average of 2 counters per turn gives a value of 252.
_ Averaging the value of the Green and Red profiles gives (60+252)/2 = 312/2 = 156. This is slightly higher than the V0.42 value for the weapon of 152, but not much.
_ While we could value the PA at it's maximum capacity, this would be illogical to me as this would assume that it was given four Red counters (IE, 8 Green) during each and every turn of the game. That seems highly unlikely to me, and it ignores the weapon's ability to fire shots at Green level.

Author:  primarch [ Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

Hi!

Some weapons are indeed problematic to assess value to, given that we may not always know beforehand how much actual firing it may get in the course of the standard game.

I like the Hellstorms cost at 108 and agree that the current method of valuation for it is good enough.

I strongly prefer the averaging of red and green profiles for the plasma annihilator with a cost of 156. I think its closer to the "true value" of the weapon.

Alternately, I think you could average out the amount of actual counters available on a turn per turn basis and the most likely uses for them.

Given that the charge roll is d6+6 and that averages between 9-10 counters per turn, what is the likely player behavior and expenditure of that average amount.

From what I have seen, it is very infrequent for players to assign "non plasma" to any of the possible parameters, so most players assign either one or two to the parameters involving fire control, shield repair and movement. So a minimum of 3 and a max of 6 for these parameters (average 3.5).

That means on average there will be 3-6 counters available for weapons on average after the previous three parameters have been assigned.

That is not a very large amount for firing, less so if overcharge counters are used (or if both main weapons are used).

All in all, I think the averaging of the values of green and red counters is probably the most accurate one, since estimates based on maximum capacity are not very common in games based on averages of charges available and where they are likely used.

Primarch

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

You bring up some good points about overall Plasma allocation.

At the moment, I have the value of the Hellstorm in as the 86.4 (2 shots per turn) rather than the 108 (2.5 shots per turn), but I may change that. I'll have to think about that for a while.

Opinions from other people would be welcomed as well.

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated for V0.43.

Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Points formula values for Titan Legions

OP updated to version 0.46.

Sample army added from the pdf.

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