Tactical Command :: View topic - Points formula values for Chaos Powers

Plague Tower review it is.

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 576 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2*2))
_ _ _ [error here. The first *2 is because of the Terror ability from being a Greater Daemon. I cannot account for the second *2, thus it may be an error. I probably had that there to account for the Boarding ability, but this is now accounted for in the Transport cost, thus should have been removed from CAF.]
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 108 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 *1.5 *2 = 108) [seems to have an error here]
_ Hell Cannon: 13.5 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2, ?; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 *1.5 = 13.5) [error here, extra *1.5]
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.

Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
_ mystery ability with value of 9*3. Probably old Transport value before it's revision, though why I didn't delete it then I have no idea.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +576 +108 +13.5 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 +27 = 864.2 which after formation adjustments comes to 1089.

Sheesh, so many errors. I'm going to have to go back over everything with a fine-tooth comb one of these days to see what else I've missed. As far as I can tell, the Rot Cannon should not have either Ignores Cover nor effect spreads and the Hell Cannon has an extra *1.5 modifier for no reason at all. Also the extra *2 on the CAF is having a huge impact. Removing those errors adjusts this thusly:

Praetorian: 15
Movement:
_ Terrain: 3
_ 15cm: 3
_ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2
Thus 3 *3 *2 = 18
Save: 55.25 (hit locations value *3 = 18.42 *3 = 55.25)
CAF: 288 ((15+3+3+2-5)*(8*2))
Weapons:
_ Rot Cannon: 36 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4; 3.6 *1 *2 *5 = 36)
_ Hell Cannon: 9 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2; 2 *2 *0.5 *1.5 *3 = 9)
_ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 *0.5 *1 *2 *1.5 *2 = 10.

Special Abilities:
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ PD(8): 8.1
_ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)*(1.5+2+2-0.5))
_ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above.
Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +288 +36 +9 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 = 472.7 which after formation adjustments comes to 595.5 which rounds to 596.

A much better, and more accurate, value, yes?

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Tweaked values adjusted by Transport revision. Note that I've reverted the Plague Tower from holding a Company to holding 11 stands as that is how it is written in the Chaos PDF. Eleven stands is enough for two Support Detachments and one Greater Daemon, but not quite enough for a Company of Infantry. Also, stating it holds 1 Company would mean it could only hold one Greater Daemon and nothing else, and that's just not how it works. The value used for 11 stands is the sum of the values for 6 stands and 5 stands. __________________ _ Khorne Bloodletter: ______________ 63 Chaos Marine: _____________ 39.5 Cultist Fanatic: __________ 26.5 Khorne Berserker: _________ 83 Fleshhound: _______________ 35 Juggernaut: _______________ 51.75 Blood Slaughterer: ________ 47.43 Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 114 Blood Reaper: _____________ 66 Brass Scorpion: __________ 118 Cauldron of Blood: _______ 110.8 Death Dealer: _____________ 99.23 [Transport 5: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots] Defiler – Khorne: ________ 120 Tower of Skulls: __________ 95.04 Cannon of Khorne: ________ 174 Doom Blaster: ____________ 125 Bloodthirster: ___________ 660 Primarch Angron: _________ 493 Banelord: ________________ 767.6 Banelord, Command: _______ 883.5 Lord of Battle: __________ 746.5 _ Nurgle Beast of Nurgle: __________ 97 Chaos Marine: _____________ 39.5 Magi (Nurgle): ____________ 39.18 Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 30 Plaguebearer: ____________ 138 Plague Marine: ____________ 40 Chaos Spawn: ______________ 44.83 Daemon Prince of Nurgle: __ 99.35 Shambler: _________________ 56.63 Breath of Nurgle: ________ 185 Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 145.5 Contagion Plague Engine: __ 76.5 Great Unclean One: _______ 528 Primarch Mortarion: ______ 415.2 Plague Tower: ___________ 1252 [Transport 11: I/GD 1/1 or W 1/1 or LA 1/1 or Cav 1/1] Bubonis: ________________ 1617 _ Slaanesh Chaos Marine: _______________ 39.5 Daemonette: _________________ 58 Fiend: ______________________ 24 Magi (Slaanesh): ____________ 55.5 Noise Marine: _______________ 53 Beast Rider: ________________ 26.5 Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 114 Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 118.5 Hell Strider: ______________ 106 Hell Scourge: ______________ 165 Hell Knight: _______________ 173 Keeper of Secrets: _________ 435 Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 420.5 Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 216 Questor: ___________________ 528 Subjugator: ________________ 519 _ Tzeentch Automation: _________________ 60 Chaos Marine: _______________ 39.5 Flamer: _____________________ 15.75 Horror, Blue: _______________ 11 Horror, Pink: _______________ 58 Magi (Tzeentch): ____________ 84.97 Disc Rider: _________________ 38 Psychic Screamer: ___________ 46 Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 101.5 Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 108 Doom Wing: _________________ 313.5 Fire Lord: _________________ 419.3 Silver Tower: ______________ 112.5 Warp Palace: _______________ 591.7 Lord of Change: ____________ 542.4 Primarch Magnus: __________ 1117 Warp Vortex: ________________ 92 Skylok: ___________________ 1312 _ Chaos Power list formations _Khorne _ Company Bloodthirster: _____________ 830 Primarch Angron: ___________ 620 World Eaters Century: ______ 465 Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 940 __ Chain Fist: ______________ 35 __ Death Storm: _____________ 35 __ Doom Burner: _____________ 50 __ Hell Blade: ______________ 30 Banelord with Command: ____ 1115 _ Support Berserkers: ________________ 300 Bloodletters: ______________ 245 Blood Slaughterer: _________ 135 Cannon of Khorne: __________ 385 Cultist Fanatics: __________ 110 Defilers: __________________ 310 Daemonic Engines, select three: __ Blood Reaper each: _______ 55 __ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 100 __ Cauldron of Blood each: __ 95 __ Death Dealer each: _______ 85 __ Tower of Skulls each: ____ 80 __ Doom Blaster each: ______ 110 Fleshhounds: _______________ 135 Juggernauts: _______________ 200 _ Special Mark of Khorne per model: _ varies by model Banelord Titan, base: ____ 860 Banelord with Command: ___ 990 Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 130 _Nurgle _ Company Great Unclean One: ___ 665 Primarch Mortarion: __ 525 Death Guard Century: _ 345 Plague Tower: _______ 1580 Bubonis Titan: ______ 2040 _ Support Beast of Nurgle: __________ 380 Breath of Nurgle: _________ 445 Chaos Spawn: ______________ 190 Contagion Plague Engines: _ 200 Defilers: _________________ 380 Nurgling Swarms: __________ 115 Plaguebearers: ____________ 540 Plague Marine: ____________ 145 Shamblers: ________________ 145 _ Special Mark of Nurgle per model: _ 25 Bubonis Titan: __________ 1810 Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 110 Nurgle Magi: ______________ 45 _Slaanesh _ Company Keeper of Secrets: __________ 550 Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 530 Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 270 Emperor's Children Century: _ 380 House Devine Knights: ______ 1440 House Devine Scourges: _____ 1420 _ Support Beast Riders: ___ 95 Daemonettes: ___ 225 Defilers: ______ 310 Fiends: _________ 95 Hell Strider: __ 275 Hell Scourge: __ 430 Hell Knight: ___ 450 Noise Marines: _ 190 Questors: _____ 1480 Subjugators: __ 1455 _ Special Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ 25 Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 130 Slaanesh Magi: ______________ 60 _Tzeentch _ Company Lord of Change: _______________ 685 Primarch Magnus: _____________ 1405 Thousand Sons Century BP 5+6: _ 655 Warp Palace: __________________ 745 _ Support Automation: _______ 445 Defilers: _________ 280 Disc Riders: ______ 135 Doom Wings: _______ 815 Flamers: ___________ 60 Fire Lord: ________ 545 Horrors: __________ 225 Psychic Screamers: _ 50 Silver Towers: ____ 145 Warp Vortex: ______ 130 _ Special Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 60 Skylok: ___________________ 1470 Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 115 Tzeentch Magi: ______________ 95

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Update for tweak2. _ Khorne Bloodletter: ______________ 60 Chaos Marine: _____________ 40.5 Cultist Fanatic: __________ 26.5 Khorne Berserker: _________ 81 Fleshhound: _______________ 35 Juggernaut: _______________ 50 Blood Slaughterer: ________ 46.35 Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 110 Blood Reaper: _____________ 75 Brass Scorpion: __________ 119 Cauldron of Blood: _______ 117.6 Death Dealer: _____________ 95.83 [Transport 5: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots] Defiler – Khorne: ________ 129.8 Tower of Skulls: _________ 103.1 Cannon of Khorne: ________ 245 Doom Blaster: ____________ 157 Bloodthirster: ___________ 655 Primarch Angron: _________ 488 Banelord: ________________ 749 Banelord, Command: _______ 881.8 Lord of Battle: __________ 725.2 _ Nurgle Beast of Nurgle: __________ 93 Chaos Marine: _____________ 40.5 Magi (Nurgle): ____________ 38.18 Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 29 Plaguebearer: ____________ 135 Plague Marine: ____________ 39 Chaos Spawn: ______________ 42.83 Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 103.9 Shambler: _________________ 59.44 Breath of Nurgle: ________ 249.5 Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 150 Contagion Plague Engine: __ 88.5 Great Unclean One: _______ 546 Primarch Mortarion: ______ 417.4 Plague Tower: ___________ 1270 [Transport 11: I/GD 1/1 or W 1/1 or LA 1/1 or Cav 1/1] Bubonis: ________________ 1800 _ Slaanesh Chaos Marine: _______________ 40.5 Daemonette: _________________ 55 Fiend: ______________________ 24 Magi (Slaanesh): ____________ 54.5 Noise Marine: _______________ 63 Beast Rider: ________________ 27 Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 125 Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 132 Hell Strider: ______________ 106 Hell Scourge: ______________ 171 Hell Knight: _______________ 177 Keeper of Secrets: _________ 443.5 Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 403 Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 211 Questor: ___________________ 513.8 Subjugator: ________________ 513.3 _ Tzeentch Automation: _________________ 59 Chaos Marine: _______________ 40.5 Flamer: _____________________ 16.5 Horror, Blue: _______________ 11 Horror, Pink: _______________ 55 Magi (Tzeentch): ____________ 83.97 Disc Rider: _________________ 40 Psychic Screamer: ___________ 42 Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 120 Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 126 Doom Wing: _________________ 321.8 Fire Lord: _________________ 433.5 Silver Tower: ______________ 124.5 Warp Palace: _______________ 654.4 Lord of Change: ____________ 535.8 Primarch Magnus: __________ 1821 Warp Vortex: _______________ 118 Skylok: ___________________ 1316 __ Chaos Power list formations _Khorne _ Company Bloodthirster: _____________ 825 Primarch Angron: ___________ 615 World Eaters Century: ______ 467 Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 914 __ Chain Fist: ______________ 43 __ Death Storm: _____________ 68 __ Doom Burner: ____________ 102 __ Hell Blade: ______________ 30 Banelord with Command: ____ 1111 _ Support Berserkers: ________________ 292 Bloodletters: ______________ 234 Blood Slaughterer: _________ 135 Cannon of Khorne: __________ 539 Cultist Fanatics: __________ 111 Defilers: __________________ 281 Daemonic Engines, select three: __ Blood Reaper each: _______ 65 __ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 103 __ Cauldron of Blood each: _ 102 __ Death Dealer each: _______ 83 __ Tower of Skulls each: ____ 89 __ Doom Blaster each: ______ 136 Fleshhounds: _______________ 137 Juggernauts: _______________ 195 _ Special Mark of Khorne per model: _ varies by model Banelord Titan, base: ____ 839 Banelord with Command: ___ 988 Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 123 _Nurgle _ Company Great Unclean One: ___ 688 Primarch Mortarion: __ 526 Death Guard Century: _ 346 Plague Tower: _______ 1601 Bubonis Titan: ______ 2268 _ Support Beast of Nurgle: __________ 363 Breath of Nurgle: _________ 599 Chaos Spawn: ______________ 180 Contagion Plague Engines: _ 230 Defilers: _________________ 390 Nurgling Swarms: __________ 113 Plaguebearers: ____________ 527 Plague Marine: ____________ 140 Shamblers: ________________ 155 _ Special Mark of Nurgle per model: _ 25 Bubonis Titan: __________ 2016 Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 116 Nurgle Magi: ______________ 43 _Slaanesh _ Company Keeper of Secrets: __________ 559 Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 508 Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 266 Emperor's Children Century: _ 415 House Devine Knights: ______ 1449 House Devine Scourges: _____ 1426 _ Support Beast Riders: ___ 97 Daemonettes: ___ 215 Defilers: ______ 343 Fiends: _________ 94 Hell Strider: __ 276 Hell Scourge: __ 445 Hell Knight: ___ 460 Noise Marines: _ 227 Questors: _____ 1439 Subjugators: __ 1437 _ Special Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ 25 Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 140 Slaanesh Magi: ______________ 61 _Tzeentch _ Company Lord of Change: _______________ 675 Primarch Magnus: _____________ 2294 Thousand Sons Century BP 3+4: _ 655 Warp Palace: __________________ 825 _ Support Automation: _______ 436 Defilers: _________ 328 Disc Riders: ______ 144 Doom Wings: _______ 837 Flamers: ___________ 64 Fire Lord: ________ 563 Horrors: __________ 215 Psychic Screamers: _ 46 Silver Towers: ____ 162 Warp Vortex: ______ 165 _ Special Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 77 Skylok: ___________________ 1473 Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 134 Tzeentch Magi: ______________ 94

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Minor update to Tzeentch Lord of Change. He cannot make Pop-up attacks.

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Sat May 02, 2015 1:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
OP updated.

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Sun May 17, 2015 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
OP updated.

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Points formula values for Chaos Powers http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=173&t=27629	Page 2 of 4

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Mon May 25, 2015 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
OP updated. Found error in Plague Tower (Transport value) & Slaanesh Magi (one Psychic power still had the *2 for being a template in V0.325).

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
OP updated for V0.33

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
OP updated for V0.34

Author:	primarch [ Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Hi! Besides Magnus (dear lord he's expensive!), I wonder about the plague tower engine. Granted its a praetorian, but a review of it would not hurt. Primarch

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Plague Tower review it is. Praetorian: 15 Movement: _ Terrain: 3 _ 15cm: 3 _ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2 Thus 3 3 2 = 18 Save: 55.25 (hit locations value 3 = 18.42 3 = 55.25) CAF: 576 ((15+3+3+2-5)(822)) _ _ _ [error here. The first 2 is because of the Terror ability from being a Greater Daemon. I cannot account for the second 2, thus it may be an error. I probably had that there to account for the Boarding ability, but this is now accounted for in the Transport cost, thus should have been removed from CAF.] Weapons: _ Rot Cannon: 108 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 1 2 5 1.5 2 = 108) [seems to have an error here] _ Hell Cannon: 13.5 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2, ?; 2 2 0.5 1.5 3 1.5 = 13.5) [error here, extra 1.5] _ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 0.5 1 2 1.5 2 = 10. Special Abilities: _ Greater Daemon: -5 _ PD(8): 8.1 _ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)(1.5+2+2-0.5)) _ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above. _ mystery ability with value of 93. Probably old Transport value before it's revision, though why I didn't delete it then I have no idea. Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +576 +108 +13.5 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 +27 = 864.2 which after formation adjustments comes to 1089. Sheesh, so many errors. I'm going to have to go back over everything with a fine-tooth comb one of these days to see what else I've missed. As far as I can tell, the Rot Cannon should not have either Ignores Cover nor effect spreads and the Hell Cannon has an extra 1.5 modifier for no reason at all. Also the extra 2 on the CAF is having a huge impact. Removing those errors adjusts this thusly: Praetorian: 15 Movement: _ Terrain: 3 _ 15cm: 3 _ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2 Thus 3 3 2 = 18 Save: 55.25 (hit locations value 3 = 18.42 3 = 55.25) CAF: 288 ((15+3+3+2-5)(82)) Weapons: _ Rot Cannon: 36 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4; 3.6 1 2 5 = 36) _ Hell Cannon: 9 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2; 2 2 0.5 1.5 3 = 9) _ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 0.5 1 2 1.5 2 = 10. Special Abilities: _ Greater Daemon: -5 _ PD(8): 8.1 _ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)(1.5+2+2-0.5)) _ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above. Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +288 +36 +9 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 = 472.7 which after formation adjustments comes to 595.5 which rounds to 596. A much better, and more accurate, value, yes?

Author:	primarch [ Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
MagnusIlluminus wrote: Plague Tower review it is. Praetorian: 15 Movement: _ Terrain: 3 _ 15cm: 3 _ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2 Thus 3 3 2 = 18 Save: 55.25 (hit locations value 3 = 18.42 3 = 55.25) CAF: 576 ((15+3+3+2-5)(822)) _ _ _ [error here. The first 2 is because of the Terror ability from being a Greater Daemon. I cannot account for the second 2, thus it may be an error. I probably had that there to account for the Boarding ability, but this is now accounted for in the Transport cost, thus should have been removed from CAF.] Weapons: _ Rot Cannon: 108 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 1 2 5 1.5 2 = 108) [seems to have an error here] _ Hell Cannon: 13.5 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2, ?; 2 2 0.5 1.5 3 1.5 = 13.5) [error here, extra 1.5] _ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 0.5 1 2 1.5 2 = 10. Special Abilities: _ Greater Daemon: -5 _ PD(8): 8.1 _ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)(1.5+2+2-0.5)) _ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above. _ mystery ability with value of 93. Probably old Transport value before it's revision, though why I didn't delete it then I have no idea. Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +576 +108 +13.5 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 +27 = 864.2 which after formation adjustments comes to 1089. Sheesh, so many errors. I'm going to have to go back over everything with a fine-tooth comb one of these days to see what else I've missed. As far as I can tell, the Rot Cannon should not have either Ignores Cover nor effect spreads and the Hell Cannon has an extra 1.5 modifier for no reason at all. Also the extra 2 on the CAF is having a huge impact. Removing those errors adjusts this thusly: Praetorian: 15 Movement: _ Terrain: 3 _ 15cm: 3 _ Greater Daemon (IE, Command): 2 Thus 3 3 2 = 18 Save: 55.25 (hit locations value 3 = 18.42 3 = 55.25) CAF: 288 ((15+3+3+2-5)(82)) Weapons: _ Rot Cannon: 36 (6cm Barrage, 50cm, 3+, -4; 3.6 1 2 5 = 36) _ Hell Cannon: 9 (2 shots, 25cm, 4+, -2; 2 2 0.5 1.5 3 = 9) _ Plague Mortar: 10.8 (6cm Barrage, 5+, -1, Ignores Cover, effect spreads; 3.6 0.5 1 2 1.5 2 = 10. Special Abilities: _ Greater Daemon: -5 _ PD(8): 8.1 _ Transport 11 of any class models: 37.5 ((1+1+0.75+1+1+2.75)(1.5+2+2-0.5)) _ _ Boarding ability is included as one of the +2's in the second set of () above. Thus total model cost is currently: 15 +18 +55.25 +288 +36 +9 +10.8 -5 +8.1 +37.5 = 472.7 which after formation adjustments comes to 595.5 which rounds to 596. A much better, and more accurate, value, yes? Oh yes! Much, much better! No worries on the errors, its a massive amount of stuff to do. You could probably review them once the actual army lists revisions are tackled. that way any new ones get their cost calculated as well as a double check of what is there already. Primarch

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Oh, right, you mentioned Primarch Magnus as well. Sure, let's review him again. Knight pinning-class model, base cost 10 Movement: _ terrain access as Infantry: 2.75 _ Move 10cm: 2 _ Command (Greater Daemon): 2 Thus Move cost: 11 (2.75 2 2) Save 2+: 15 (5 3) CAF of +10: 235 (( 10 +3 +2 +2 -5) 20) [20 from CAF 10 2 from Terror (Greater Daemon)] Beam of Power: 1418 _ one shot per turn: 2 _ Range 100cm: 2 _ To Hit 2+: 3 _ TSM -6: 7 _ Ignores Cover: 1.5 _ Penetrating +3: 2.5 _ Physical Psychic: 1.5 _ Command: 1.5 _ Destroys Buildings: 2 Thus 2 2 3 7 1.5 2.5 1.5 1.5 2 = 1418 Special Abilities: _ Greater Daemon base: -5 _ gains 3 Chaos Reward cards: 45 Model cost then comes to 10 +11 +15 +235 +1418 +40 (45-5) = 1729 Morale adjusts that to 2419.9 Company formation adjusts to 2177.91 which rounds to 2178. Obviously, most of his cost is the Beam, though the CAF value is a big chunk as well, as it is with all such models. I may have to adjust the CAF part of the formula a bit. Not sure what to do about the Beam. Perhaps some of the modifiers could be adjusted. Probably Physical Psychic could have it's value reduced as very few weapons have it and it only really affects Daemons and similar creatures, of which there are few. Oh, I just noticed a thing. The Plague Tower is going up a bit again, as there should be 1.5 modifiers on it's weapons for it being a Command model. Sorry about forgetting that the other day, that means that some of the *1.5 modifiers were misidentified on my part. Plague Tower is now 500.6 for model cost and 631 for Company cost.

Author:	The Bissler [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
I've only recently started properly looking at the Chaos list and must admit I do have my concerns. 1) A lot of Chaos units have increased in value rather than decreased with many other forces. Chaos were always a tricky force to win with as it was, I had grave doubts about how effective they will be now that for certain forces the points values (such as IG, Orks) will now go a lot further. 2) Greater Daemons: with other forces you have the choice as to whether or not you would invest serious amounts of points in the likes of Praetorians and Titans, with Chaos you have no choice whatsoever. You have to start your force with a Greater Daemon - the costs have to be reasonable otherwise no one will use Chaos with the new system. Following on from this... 3) Primarch Magnus: I appreciate the explanation about how his cost is arrived at but as powerful as he is, he isn't worth 2K worth of points. He is one unit and his all-powerful beam can kill one enemy and secure one objective per turn. Think what you could buy in other armies for that cost; both in terms of power and versatility Magnus would be a goner. I'm not saying he wouldn't dispatch some opponents but killing troops / destroying vehicles one a time per turn isn't going to make for a balanced or fun game. 4) Daemon Engines of Khorne: I'm interested to know if there has been any downward grading of costings for the Engines since they are severely hamstrung by the enforced minimum of having to be on advance orders every turn. In Net Epic Gold I never got the the chance to fire them until the Advance Fire Phase in turn 2, by which time they were usually destroyed. Anyway, just a few of my thoughts...

Author:	MagnusIlluminus [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Good points there. I don't disagree with anything, but a few thoughts. 1. Do recall that the Powers may also freely choose any Support or Special formations from the Chaos Renegades list, so they do have access to cheap troops with which to counter other factions' cheap troop options. Cultists are almost criminally inexpensive. 2. True, the Greater Daemons themselves have all gone up, some more than others. For example, Fulgrim and Mortarion have only gone up a bit. However, each Power does have options that have reduced in cost. The various Centuries have all dropped in price, and one of the newer options (the Altar of Slaanesh) actually reduced in cost. Thus each Power does have options. 3. Very good points there. With him, and other examples that have come up recently, I'm thinking that the recent revision to the CAF system is producing numbers that are just too high, especially for high end CAF values. I'll have to think about how to fix that. There are also likely a few Weapon Modifiers that could use tweaking. Also adding Chaos Cards to your force. Currently the last is worth 15 per Card, perhaps that is too high? _ Also, Primarch Magnus is a lot like a Squat Praetorian. One should choose him when facing worthwhile targets (IE, other Titans, Praetorians, and Greater Daemons) and not when facing forces without them. Under 2nd edition, EVERY Chaos Powers force would include him because he was far, far too good for his cost. Thus he needs to be expensive to make a Powers player think twice (or more) before including him in their army. Not perhaps as expensive as he currently is, but expensive. 4. Not currently. That is an interesting idea though. Currently, the Special Ability costs for the Daemon Engine ability vary by Power and are: Khorne: 6 Nurgle: 0 and a 2 modifier to CAF value Slaanesh: 30 Tzeentch: 0 and 15 per added Chaos Reward Card _ I'm not certain how I came up with the values for Khorne and Slaanesh. There may be formulas or they may just be arbitrary, I'll have to poke around a bit more later. How would people feel about a modifier being added to the costs for weapons where the model cannot use First Fire orders? While this would mostly apply to the Khorne Daemon Engines (that are not also Greater Daemons), it could also apply to some Flyers and other models that players create later. Would a value of 0.5 be about right? (IE, halving the weapon cost.) Perhaps *0.75?

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Author:	primarch [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
Hi! My thoughts. 1. A cost of 15 per chaos cards is too high. I would place it around 10 and see what that gives us. 2. I also agree that CAF values a slightly too high on the end (high CAF values). In this case I feel that not all CAF increments are the same weight. I would say CAF values between 0 and 6 have similar weight per integer of increment, but once you get to values of 7 or above there isn't a whole lot of practical difference in game between a CAF of 7 or 10, since those usually win CC against most units with CAF of 6 or lower. 3. The Slaanesh special ability value of 30 seems quite high to me. If these values turn out to be arbitrary I'd set Khorne at 5 and Slaanesh at 20 (or less). 4. I definitely agree some modifier to the weapon for not being able to fire on first fire is in order (its a rather big drawback), A value of 0.5 would be appropriate. 5. As for Magnus, I wondered for all unique units in general. Should there be some sort of modifier (discount) for them since you can only ever have one? Unlike other greater demons which are more plentiful and their cost should remain as is. As I have said before he is a RIDICULOUSLY overpowered unit. Basically a flying anti-titan weapon with invulnerability (chaos cards). He is easily better than any common titan (Magnus has no vulnerability). He may not be worth 2k, but DEFINITELY over 1k. If players want him cheaper HE MUST BE NERFED. He is simply too good for anything under 1000 points. Primarch