That's fair enough, except we return to the problem that came up with the guard list, odd numbers of infantry stands and vehicles. In this case we have a detachment of 4 stands and 2 vehicles, but the variant support card will have 3 vehicles (like all the others), that is why I suggested a rejig so we have 2 detachments with 6 stands and 3 vehicles rather than the 3 with 4 stands/2 vehicles.

Matt

Though I am half tempted to do the same thing with marines which we proposed for the guard list and put every infantry formation on foot and put the transports as support options.

In the fluff the 1st company is "supposed" to be 100 strong like all the other companies, and those 100 veterans can be fielded as either terminators or Stern/Van-gard veterans (used to be just vanilla vets until they split them.

I think in the fluff some chapters can field their entire 1st company as terminators, some can't, either because they don't have enough suits or they don't have enough guys, however, in 40K at least, many players frequently want to field all terminators and I think most DIY chapters assume that THEIR chapter has a full complement of both suits and bodies.

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Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....

I really think that makes a fair amount of sense for marines

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Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....

Hi!

This would perhaps not be a bad thing for ALL armies. Basic option is troop types on foot, vehicle added as necessary.

The more I think about it the more I think its a good idea.

Primarch

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Off to pull apart the army list I go then

Matt

Hi!

Make it so number 1!

At this juncture I have decided that net epic gold will only get corrections (remaining as is) and all this other stuff goes into platinum/titanium which is just a modern take on the old rules with newer unit organizations.

I think this will permit players from any version of epic to buy into it without having to reorganize their forces.

I'm liking this idea very much.

Primarch

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Just to check, would making making all infantry on foot with transports as support options mess with any balance issues based on only being allowed so many support cards per company? If you want mobile companies you now have fewer slots for other kinds of support.

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Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....

Good point. My opinion is that the option to add transports should not take up a support formation slot for any Faction that normally places it's Infantry in transports, but should for those that do not. Specifically: Marines, Eldar, Titan Legions, Evil Sunz Orks, and Tau would be able to purchase transports without using up Support slots, but Chaos, Guard, PDF, Sisters, Frateris, Necron, all other Ork Clans, Squat, and Tyranid would have to use Support slots. This would support the SM2/NE way of arranging forces without strictly enforcing it. [Any faction not mentioned I have insufficient information on and/or interest in to worry about.]

Alternatively, we could just say that it only requires one Support slot to equip the entire Company with transports, regardless of the number of troop stands involved or the type of transport. This would be balanced in a different way. We could even do both.

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I think it came up in the guard discussion that transport options would not count towards the support card limit even though they would be put as support cards.
I guess though, we see how things play out before fully committing to transport upgrades taking up none, one or some support slots.

Hi!

The IG discussion yielded that transports would work like ork cards in the sense they increase the cost, VP and break point to the unit added, but unlike ork cards these do not take up a support card slot.

The imperial armies are easy to do. The orks already work like this. Eldar, tau and squats would benefit too.

Mechanizing things should not penalize the player. Its an option (in some cases an expensive one), but should not tilt the balance if all armies can do the same.

Primarch

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It would be relatively simple to do. This is the structure that current armies are built around:



We could just implement something like this:



Company, Special and Support stays the same, but each formation can take transport options and/or upgrades (another area that we could still explore?).

Obviously some units could fit under Support or Transport options like Land Raiders and their variants as you might want some in your army for their firepower rather than their transport capability. I guess we add the caveat that formations chosen as transport options, are considered part the formation they are transporting and must maintain coherency, but if you choose to take them as a Support option, but use them as transports, then they are considered separate units.

Also need to figure out what to do with HQ units. Do we allow just them to take a free vehicle that matches the transports of one of the detachments in the company?

The only significant issue I can see is their might be a slight increase in VPs since each formation/option will have its own VP/BP value and they then get added together.
For example, take a generic detachment of infantry and their vehicles, 6 stands, 3 vehicles. They cost 300pts, give 3 VPs. If separately the infantry costs 150pts (2 VPs) and the vehicles 150pts (+2 VPs), the VPs of the combined unit is now 4. Given that this will be applied across most, if not all army lists, I am not unduly worried as every one will be in the same boat.
Or rather than just adding the separate VPs/BPs of the units together we state that people have to work out the new combined VPs and BPs from the total cost of the combined formation and total number of models.

A word of warning, if I do go down this route with the marines, I will be restructuring all the formations so they are based around 6 stands of infantry and 3/6 vehicles (though this will only affect Legion of the Damned, Terminators and Grey Knights from what I can see).

Matt

Hi!

I like this VERY much!

By the way I'm going to pinch those images from you when the time comes to do the books.

I like the concept of upgrades. I used them when I design the heresy game (I called them "wargear").

I like how they are an extra "layer" in top of the already existing company/support/special formation organization. They can be used or not and not affect the whole.

I'm very much on board with this.

Primarch

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When the time comes, I might be able to knock up something a bit more fancy for the structure diagram, but for the time being it will do.

When I go through and review the costs, I think I will be making use of 25's more rather than sticking with just 50's and 100's. Should help balance things.

Matt

I guess I missed that part of the IG discussion.

As far as I can tell, Legion of the Damned should not have the option for transports at all as they Teleport into the battle, and that has always been described as 'replaces transports'. Thus their formation size would not have to change. Them being the odd formation with a different size would also reinforce them as being 'outside' the normal army structure.

As to normal Terminators, I'm of mixed feelings as to whether their formation size should change or not. There are good reasons for having both sizes, so perhaps that is what should be done. Have both sizes. That is, have one formation be standard (probably the full strength one) and have the other be an optional formation for those players who want to represent a Chapter of the other strength. Give people options.

I really feel that the size of a Grey Knights formation should not change. They are supposed to be rare and not often seen units (at least in Epic), and making them 6 squads per would increase the cost to 600 which is more than some Titans, so nearly nobody would choose them at all. Admittedly, that would thus make them rarer, but for the wrong reasons.

Alternatively, we could get rid of the Grey Knights formation entirely and instead have them as an add-on option for Inquisitor and Ordo-Malleus Inquisitor formations on a squad by squad basis. That is, for 100 points you'd add 1 Grey Knight squad which adds one to the break point and the VP.

In my view, the VP of a formation should be dependent only on the final cost of that formation.

You might want to avoid using values other than 50 or 100 for final costs, as that recently caused a bit of a stir about Titan Weapons.

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