Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules

 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

I would favor a fix air patrol radius since it is easier. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France
First fire order fixed Peter :)

I agree that it would make thingd easier with a fixed aerial zone of control.

I've checked IG codex and it appears that Valkyrie has a 0 caf...maybe a solution could be to give to all flyers one default aerial attack dice and add caf bonus ?

So valkyrie would have 1+0=0, thunderbolt 1+4=5 etc...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:25 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
scream wrote:
First fire order fixed Peter :)

I agree that it would make thingd easier with a fixed aerial zone of control.

I've checked IG codex and it appears that Valkyrie has a 0 caf...maybe a solution could be to give to all flyers one default aerial attack dice and add caf bonus ?

So valkyrie would have 1+0=0, thunderbolt 1+4=5 etc...


Hi!

I think a more pertinent question is why is it CAF 0? I think all fliers should have a CAF of at least 1.

Is this the only such instance of a flier with zero CAF?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I think a more pertinent question is why is it CAF 0? I think all fliers should have a CAF of at least 1.

Is this the only such instance of a flier with zero CAF?

Primarch


Hi Peter,

Ork Landas: caf 0
Ork Suppa trans'ork rokit: caf 0
Eldar Vampyre: caf 0
Imperial Guard Valkyrie: caf 0

As you mention, would not be unbalanced to grant them a +1 caf.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
scream wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I think a more pertinent question is why is it CAF 0? I think all fliers should have a CAF of at least 1.

Is this the only such instance of a flier with zero CAF?

Primarch


Hi Peter,

Ork Landas: caf 0
Ork Suppa trans'ork rokit: caf 0
Eldar Vampyre: caf 0
Imperial Guard Valkyrie: caf 0

As you mention, would not be unbalanced to grant them a +1 caf.


Hi!

Then they should have all a +1 CAF. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Please don't change models CAF value just and only because they are a Flyer. They have a CAF of zero because they are not good in a Close Assault situation. Also, changing their CAF will change their cost quite a lot as most Flyers move quite rapidly. And are Flyers.

Frankly, I'd prefer to NOT use CAF to determine how good a Flyer is versus other Flyers precisely because of the Points Formula. CAF has a specific defined use in Epic, and it should only mean that. Please come up with some other system to determine the number of dice rolled. Possibly use their comparative points values. For example, if one model costs 600 and the other 200, then the 600 model rolls three dice while the other rolls just one. Or 6 dice vs 2 dice. Using the entire points value would have the benefit of taking the entire model into account (speed, maneuverability, weapons, etc) and not just some arbitrarily set CAF value.

If you absolutely have to use CAF, then do as mentioned above and have the number of dice used equal to the CAF value plus 1.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Please don't change models CAF value just and only because they are a Flyer. They have a CAF of zero because they are not good in a Close Assault situation. Also, changing their CAF will change their cost quite a lot as most Flyers move quite rapidly. And are Flyers.

Frankly, I'd prefer to NOT use CAF to determine how good a Flyer is versus other Flyers precisely because of the Points Formula. CAF has a specific defined use in Epic, and it should only mean that. Please come up with some other system to determine the number of dice rolled. Possibly use their comparative points values. For example, if one model costs 600 and the other 200, then the 600 model rolls three dice while the other rolls just one. Or 6 dice vs 2 dice. Using the entire points value would have the benefit of taking the entire model into account (speed, maneuverability, weapons, etc) and not just some arbitrarily set CAF value.

If you absolutely have to use CAF, then do as mentioned above and have the number of dice used equal to the CAF value plus 1.


Hi!

Points value couldn't be used since bombers are more costly than interceptor types and they'd have more dice, which would defeat the purpose of the system proposed.

On a different note, Scream I ask you, do all fliers even need to have the ability to roll dice in aerial combat?

I would make an argument that the few you have listed with zero CAF SHOULD be defenseless against incoming interceptor type aircraft.

I would have no problem leaving them at zero (no dice or possibility of inflicting hits) for aerial combat. In other words you bring these guys you better protect them, or depend on their saves to avoid destruction.

In real life such transports have no change of inflicting damage on interceptor aircraft, I'd be fine simulating that here as well.

The more I think on it the more I like the idea of keeping them at zero.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France
Hi all,

About 0 caf, I think Eldar Vampyre & Imperial Guard Valkyrie should get at least a +1 value, they are not WW2 glider and have enough weapons to claim to a "dogfight value".
For the Landa/Trans'ork Rokkit, those as big rokkits to are just supposed to "crash" on a landing point, it's kind of "landing" and in this case, they could be considered as being on a "deploy mission" and would benefit a "-1 to be hit" bonus.

About the "Caf value" or "Dogfight value":
With current profiles on other fighters/bombers, caf values seem correct to me to represent how well they can defend/attack in the air (and it's how we resolve air close combat with current rules), that's why I proposed to use them "as-is". I understand that is could make things trickier with transport units that can land and be engaged in a ground close combat.
I don't have any particular problem with creating a "DFV" (for DogFight Value) ability with an associated value (as we do for Point Defense) and place the caf value to "-" or "Special" for all flyers and only keep the "caf" value for flyers that can land.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:05 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
scream wrote:
Hi all,

About 0 caf, I think Eldar Vampyre & Imperial Guard Valkyrie should get at least a +1 value, they are not WW2 glider and have enough weapons to claim to a "dogfight value".
For the Landa/Trans'ork Rokkit, those as big rokkits to are just supposed to "crash" on a landing point, it's kind of "landing" and in this case, they could be considered as being on a "deploy mission" and would benefit a "-1 to be hit" bonus.

About the "Caf value" or "Dogfight value":
With current profiles on other fighters/bombers, caf values seem correct to me to represent how well they can defend/attack in the air (and it's how we resolve air close combat with current rules), that's why I proposed to use them "as-is". I understand that is could make things trickier with transport units that can land and be engaged in a ground close combat.
I don't have any particular problem with creating a "DFV" (for DogFight Value) ability with an associated value (as we do for Point Defense) and place the caf value to "-" or "Special" for all flyers and only keep the "caf" value for flyers that can land.


Hi!

Perhaps A DFV is a better way to do it then. Leave CAF as a landed engagement value.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
That's probably the better idea, except leave the CAF values on everything. Remember, when at low altitude even a flyer can be engaged in a standard Close Assault by any Skimmer or Jump model. Admittedly, the Flyer can just move away (if it survives) as it likes, but it can be engaged by non-Flyers.

If something is terrible, or defenseless, in Close Assault then give it a negative CAF value as the current Light Artillery have. Admittedly, that is currently causing issues with Light Artillery, so be careful with that. Giving anything a value of "-" for CAF would just cause problems. Among other things, the core rules would have to be amended to include how to deal with that.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That's probably the better idea, except leave the CAF values on everything. Remember, when at low altitude even a flyer can be engaged in a standard Close Assault by any Skimmer or Jump model. Admittedly, the Flyer can just move away (if it survives) as it likes, but it can be engaged by non-Flyers.

If something is terrible, or defenseless, in Close Assault then give it a negative CAF value as the current Light Artillery have. Admittedly, that is currently causing issues with Light Artillery, so be careful with that. Giving anything a value of "-" for CAF would just cause problems. Among other things, the core rules would have to be amended to include how to deal with that.


Hi!

Then a DFV for aerial units it is then. :)

Want to take a stab of doing the list then Scream?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: France
primarch wrote:
Then a DFV for aerial units it is then. :)

Want to take a stab of doing the list then Scream?

Primarch


I'll do the list Peter.


About the altitude, I totally forgot the possibility to Floaters/Skimmers/Jump-equippedTroop to engage Flyers at low altitude in Close Combat. This seems so weird that my brain totally overshadowed this possibility.

I could understand and imagine that Floaters/Skimmers/Jump-equipped troops could engage Floaters in Close Combat at Low Altitude (Floaters are just slow moving aerial things) but Flyers ? Isn't there something wrong about this ?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
scream wrote:
primarch wrote:
Then a DFV for aerial units it is then. :)

Want to take a stab of doing the list then Scream?

Primarch


I'll do the list Peter.


About the altitude, I totally forgot the possibility to Floaters/Skimmers/Jump-equippedTroop to engage Flyers at low altitude in Close Combat. This seems so weird that my brain totally overshadowed this possibility.

I could understand and imagine that Floaters/Skimmers/Jump-equipped troops could engage Floaters in Close Combat at Low Altitude (Floaters are just slow moving aerial things) but Flyers ? Isn't there something wrong about this ?


Hi!

Not really, at least in my minds imagination. A low flying flier is fast, but so are skimmer and a guy with a jump pack can guage distance and speed and "jump" on a passing low level craft.

If action heroes in movies can jump on planes in mid air of from buildings then guys with jump packs and skimmers should too. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
I seem to recall that Flyers in the 40K 'verse largely, if not entirely, have integrated anti-grav tech so they do not have to produce as much forward thrust as modern-day earth ones would have to produce to stay in the air. If not actually anti-gravity tech, then some equivalent. The fact that a Thunderhawk or Valkyrie can land and take off again without requiring a dedicated runway demonstrates this.

In addition, any Flyer that wants to participate in this scale of ground engagement would be going about as slow as they can manage while still staying aloft. Any Flyer moving at speeds where they could not be engaged would zip over the battlefield without even noticing that it was there. Perhaps be able to drop a bomb or two, but that's about it. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on aircraft, modern or otherwise, so I could be wrong here.

Also, what Primarch said.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Proposed rule amendment for Flyer rules
PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I seem to recall that Flyers in the 40K 'verse largely, if not entirely, have integrated anti-grav tech so they do not have to produce as much forward thrust as modern-day earth ones would have to produce to stay in the air. If not actually anti-gravity tech, then some equivalent. The fact that a Thunderhawk or Valkyrie can land and take off again without requiring a dedicated runway demonstrates this.

In addition, any Flyer that wants to participate in this scale of ground engagement would be going about as slow as they can manage while still staying aloft. Any Flyer moving at speeds where they could not be engaged would zip over the battlefield without even noticing that it was there. Perhaps be able to drop a bomb or two, but that's about it. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on aircraft, modern or otherwise, so I could be wrong here.

Also, what Primarch said.


Hi!

Reading the novels I got that feel as well. It seem that "atmospheric" craft weren't that "speedy" and were intercepted on occasion by craft other than their own type.

Also, the real in game opportunities for this too happen are not too frequent, at least from my expereince.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net