I know we had agreed at one point that Eldar Revenants should be increased to cost 500 per pair but I reckon this should be increased to at least 550 or even 600.

The Scorpion Superheavy costs 250 with the same armament less the missile launcher, holofields & benefits of having the hit location chart (ie "hits" can still miss if the shot goes in the wrong direction after rolling the up down left right target dice). The Scorpion does have one bonus which is that it is a skimmer but it still makes no sense to me for it to cost the same as the Revenant.

Alternatively the Scorpion could be reduced to 200 or at least 225 to bring it into line with the IG Superheavies?

Thoughts?

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Actually, I'm more convinced that the Revenants and also Warhounds should be recosted. Ideally a pair of Warhounds should cost the same as a Reaver. Sure they have fewer shields and less powerful weapons but the tiny hit location chart means any target dice deviation often results in a miss, plus it is usually tougher to take down 2 Warhounds than it is 1 Reaver.

Therefore, I suggest increasing Warhound costings to 150 for the hull, 300 for the pair and the Revenants to increase to 600 also.

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Slightly aside, it always feels odd that you can miss a titan even after hitting it :/
But back to your point, I suspect the scout titans are undercosted, what does magnus say in his costing posts?

Using the costing formula, magnus calculated the Revenant hull at close to 700pts, so undercosted might be some what of an understatement!

Hi!

Yup. Magnus' formula really cranked it up for all titans, but the scout ones when up quite a bit. They look a lot like the old values for titans under AT.

Myself, I no longer worry about the old costs system. Too arbitrary open to endless debate and tweaking. I would say Bissler cost them however you'd like for your games. Your suggestion is just as good as any other.

My mindset for cost is purely on the new formula. I find it values what should be valued and while we can argue the merit of a specific valuation of an ability, it becomes easier to adjust cost on something concrete rather than "eyeballing it", which we've done for almost 18 years..... and we still can't agree on fair pricing for some units.

Primarch

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Heh. Yeah, their value in the formula has gone up a bit. Post tweak runs:

Eldar Revenant Special Formation: 1530
Eldar Phantom Titan (1) Special: 835 + 4 weapons (2 arms, 2 wings)
Imperial Warhound Special, each: 610 + 2 weapons
Imperial Reaver Special: 705 + 3 weapons
Chaos Questor Support: 1480
Chaos Subjugator Support: 1455

Admittedly, the formula may need further tweaking for applying to Titans, as these values may be too high.

For comparison to Bissler's OP, the Scorpion comes out to a cost of 200 in the formula for a Support Formation versus the above value for the formation of Revenant. Thus the formula really calls out that a pair of Revenant are significantly more powerful than one Scorpion. About 7 times more so.

As Primarch said above, and I heartily suggest as well, please use the formula values for a few battles and see if the battle seems more (or less) balanced. Perhaps even trying the same battle a few times in a row, just to help eliminate random chance. Especially if you can use the tweaked values. I know I haven't gotten to Orks yet (your favorite if I recall correctly), but I will eventually.

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Re the aside: my nephew was bemoaning exactly this when we were playing! I'll mention this in my battle report...

There's been many a time when I've been playing that I've battered Warhounds / Revenants with large amounts of firepower only to fall foul of the target dice.

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This is fair enough; I know Magnus' system is the proper fix, I just thought it may be worthwhile chalking up this one for the Gold revision as I know there will be a lot of traditionalists who will resist the proper costing system. It just seems like an obvious one requiring a fix, but you're right, I'm pretty much plucking figures from the air because it "feels" wrong!

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It's my definite intention to do so Magnus. I know I've been quiet on your threads but I've been allowing you to refine the system before jumping in. It doesn't mean I have no interest, you know me and making changes to improve the game!

My nephew will be the biggest problem to get on board with trying out the costings althougn it may help to use my example to encourage him to give it a go. I think it is more likely that I will try out some solo games sometime in the new year, most likely February as I have a hectic schedule in January.

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PS don't worry about the Orks, I've been playing them a lot really only because they were a force I largely missed out on back in the day. That and the fact that along with Chaos I'm quite proud of the paint job I've done on them! It doesn't mean I wouldn't give other forces a go first.

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Hi !

I played against eldars since several years and I have purpose the recost at 500 points for the revenants. I think 500 for two revenants is good. More will be too much.

The Scorpion is skimmer so it is very difficult to destroy the Scorpion (you can hide it behind a building and make pop-up, if your opponent don't have any shoot at 75 cm and can snap fire, your Scorpion can not be destroy !!!). I prefer confront a revenant that a Scorpion because I can destroy a revenant with a single scorcha (in the rear it is very easy).

Warhound can choose its weapons not Revenant.

So, 500 for two revenants, with a knight-holofield, it is very good for me.

(excuse my english but I'm french ^^)

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Hi!

Agreed.

Primarch

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