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What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=28651		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  primarch [ Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:42 pm ]
Post subject:  What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
hi!

I spend some time here discussing epic stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/SMEPIC40K/

In the course of discussing NEP's possible changes, I asked myself:

What are the core defining mechanics of net epic?

In other words what are the absolute most basic mechanics that need to be there for the rule set to be considered "net epic"?

Stuff like the order counters and definitions are a given, but what else?

The reason behind this is that if there is a clear consensus of what is absolutely necessary to be there (and not excessively modified), then it is easier to figure out what needs to be "tweaked/changes/modified".

I was curiously as to the opinions on this.

Primarch
Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
My recollection was that the major difference between 1st & 2nd edition were the victory points. Suddenly the game had a structure which 1st edition didn't.

Another change was that the rules were much more straightforward and lethal also. It sped play up, something which I'm an advocate of.

I wouldn't say the orders because the same orders existed in 1st edition and did much the same thing.
Author:  primarch [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
The Bissler wrote:
My recollection was that the major difference between 1st & 2nd edition were the victory points. Suddenly the game had a structure which 1st edition didn't.

Another change was that the rules were much more straightforward and lethal also. It sped play up, something which I'm an advocate of.

I wouldn't say the orders because the same orders existed in 1st edition and did much the same thing.


Hi!

Well, the purpose of the thread was to state what are the indispensable mechanics of net epic that going forward we must keep, not differences between 1st and second edition. ;)

For Bissler, what are the "key" ingredients rules wise, that without which it would be net epic (or enjoyable)?

Primarch
Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
My point was that the VPs are one of the defining things about 2nd edition and therefore Net Epic.

I'm not too precious about changing things about as I'm all for a system that makes things better.

I feel that the orders have to,stay in some way, it was a problem I encountered for Evolution.

Unit sizes and points costings can be changed but I don't really want to see stat changes. I know some of them inside out & I'm not too keen on learning new ones. I know this is not what you want to hear, sorry.
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
I'd say that what is essential to Net Epic about the stats is what the stats are defined as being overall, but not the stats for specific models. To be more specific, there must be a stat that shows how far each model can travel during a turn (IE Move), a stat that shows how resistant it is to taking damage (IE Save), a stat that shows how well it performs in a melee (IE CAF), a stat (or rather, a grouping of stats) that define how effective it's ranged weapon(s) are (IE Weapon name, Range, #Attacks, To Hit, & TSM), and a category for other notes (IE Special Abilities).

Each model, or at the least each formation of models, must have a points value. Whether this value is determined by 'feel' (as per GW) or via a formula is actually not relevant. So long as it has a value that is reasonably representative of it's power relative to other models so that armies can be assembled that are reasonably similar in power, how the value is generated does not really matter.

The distinctions for Model Type / Pinning Class is essential, IMHO. These give a commonality to all members of a certain type that transcends their stats, and clearly shows the ascending power curve of the models in the game.

This may sound a bit odd, especially coming from an American, but I feel that the game being played via centimeters is essential. It is far easier to get accurate results when dividing by 2, 5, or whatever when using a base 10 system than with a base WTF system (feet, inches, etc).

I'll have to think a bit about other aspects of the game before I comment on them.
Author:  @ringo [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
order counters and army cards...

That is the two things I remember that made the game different from the other wargames back in the day.

Made gaming and army composition easy and quick. We were not to concerned about balance and fair pricing back then. Pre Slann so to speak...

It is important that you raise this question Prime!
I've been following the discussion and have been thinking that you are in reality creating a new game. Remembering why we LOVE this game and what we LOVE about it is important!
Author:  Mattman [ Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
Order counters, capturing objectives, deadly close combat, simple d6 system they stand out to me.
I did (and still do) love the army card system, it was very simple, keeping the Company/Support/Special selections is essential. If there was some reasonable way of still doing it which allowed us to keep using the cards without having to make hundreds of different variations of a formations contents, then I would happily do that.
Author:  Nedius [ Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
For me, the defining thing for Net Epic are:

Orders

Army Cards (but I still use my Space Marine ones...)

Alternating activations

simple but clear stats and rules (I found this especially was the case back with Space Marine - I didn't have the rules at first, just a WD article about the STOMPAS boxed set. I was still pretty much able to figure out the rules almost exactly just from those simple stats.
Author:  primarch [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
Nedius wrote:
For me, the defining thing for Net Epic are:

Orders

Army Cards (but I still use my Space Marine ones...)

Alternating activations

simple but clear stats and rules (I found this especially was the case back with Space Marine - I didn't have the rules at first, just a WD article about the STOMPAS boxed set. I was still pretty much able to figure out the rules almost exactly just from those simple stats.


Hi!

You'll be happy to know someone is making updated army cards for use with Gold, with up to date info. So that should help you out greatly. :)

Primarch
Author:  Char B1 bis [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
I concur wholeheartedly with MagnusIlluminus.

And, I'd like to pose a question. Why is it important to keep the core rules? If you're just fine tuning or even digging at this set, aren't you just putting lipstick on a pig if indeed the rules need changed? Or are you just creating to create?

Please understand I mean no malice here. I find these rules dear, think you've done wonderful work, and would hate to see revision make the matter worse.

Thanks,

Pat
Author:  primarch [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
Char B1 bis wrote:
I concur wholeheartedly with MagnusIlluminus.

And, I'd like to pose a question. Why is it important to keep the core rules? If you're just fine tuning or even digging at this set, aren't you just putting lipstick on a pig if indeed the rules need changed? Or are you just creating to create?

Please understand I mean no malice here. I find these rules dear, think you've done wonderful work, and would hate to see revision make the matter worse.

Thanks,

Pat


Hi!

Well to be clear, since there may be confusion on this point, it bears repeating.

There will be no changing, replacing, or wholesale altering of the net epic gold rules.

The original promise was that Gold was to be the "stable version" of the rules. The "actual" net epic rules if you will.

Having said that there are some of us, whom are either bored with, like to tinker with or otherwise what to "re-arrange" things in line with our current tastes/whims/persuasion dictate. Since we understand that these kinds of changes ideas etc cannot change the "official" version of the rules, what is left is "variants".

Note these variants are just that, pet projects of one or more people whom wish to modify the rules in their own way. They in no way "override" or "replace" Gold. Sort of like variant army lists, there for those whom wish to use them and not important for those whom are not interested.

Platinum is one such version. The main goal there being modifying army construction to "modernize" it in the "40k" tradition. It will probably include some rules variants, but the focus is not that.

Evolution, is more about fusing movement and firing into a single activation, where most of the rules remain the same as in "stock" Gold. Having played it, I like what I have seen, but I personally want "more" change in some areas.

Then there is my own pet project of no name. I have done this before, so that is no surprise. Available to whom ever wishes to use it and no foul if no one does. I guess I've played "to much" of the stock game to find it challenging anymore. Kind of a weird attitude for the person whom runs all this, but I never said I wasn't weird. ;)

So I wouldn't use the word "revision", since Gold remains "untouched". These projects are in effect their own rule sets, some with more common elements with Gold, some less, but their own thing.

The little that gets done in Gold is more along the lines of errata/mistake corrections and perhaps the infrequent "tweak". Other than that there isn't much going on with it.

Heck even a proposed amendment to the flier rules is still kind of kicking about and I considered that very trivial in effect and scope. Change just doesn't happen there. It is what it is.

After 18 years running net epic I have learned one simple lesson. People like the rules just the way they are warts and all. This is fine and good.

For those many players like this, they have Gold. Basically forever unchanged.

For the rest of us very familiar with its "shortcomings" we "make up" other projects and rule sets and give them impressive sounding names. ;) ;D

In the end there is a little something for everyone without having to take someone else's favorite thing and changing it.

So basically we're the ice cream shop of fan based endeavors. We always have vanilla (Gold), but some times people want other flavors. ;)

Primarch
Author:  The Bissler [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
I'm glad you think Evolution is an impressive sounding name! :D

I agree with everything you said above Primarch, Net Epic Gold is for the traditionalists and no one is trying to take that away from anyone. I also agree that it's no bad thing to have options and play what you like best!
Author:  Char B1 bis [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
Very well said Primarch.

I now fully understand your mission and wish you luck. As for me, funnily, vanilla ice cream is about the only one I ever eat! :)
Author:  primarch [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
Char B1 bis wrote:
Very well said Primarch.

I now fully understand your mission and wish you luck. As for me, funnily, vanilla ice cream is about the only one I ever eat! :)


Hi!

In real life all I eat is vanilla. ;)

That may be the reason I go for the crazy flavors in gaming systems. ;D

Primarch
Author:  primarch [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What are Net Epic's defining rules mechanics
The Bissler wrote:
I'm glad you think Evolution is an impressive sounding name! :D

I agree with everything you said above Primarch, Net Epic Gold is for the traditionalists and no one is trying to take that away from anyone. I also agree that it's no bad thing to have options and play what you like best!


Hi!

Given I have no name for my project, yes, Evolution sounds pretty damn impressive. ;D

Primarch
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