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Tzacol Concepts

 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:10 pm 
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I was thinking, with all the aztec influence, it is easy to fall into the pyramide trap. But that has sort of been done before...

I'm thinking since these are the aliens from the dawn of time, perhaps inspiration could be found in the early days of sci-fi. I'm thinking about Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers with flying saucers, other disc, cigar and spherical shapes. Influence could perhaps also be found in 40ies car designs? (I think they have intresting shapes, that will fit Frogulans.

Aztec symbols and patterns may still be applied to these designs.

I have a hard time seeing these guys getting innvolved in gritty hand to hand combat. Would they employ mercenaries for these tasks, providing firesupport themselves. Or would the perhaps cultivite clones for these dirty Jobs?


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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:18 pm 
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I agree - they cant just be floating stone pyramids...

I like Wellsprings Idea of different Epochs from different times. If they need hand to hand shock troops - they'll go back in the timestream and summon a more brutal Tzacol evolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:32 pm 
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I know the idea is to avoid standard tank-age,
but since the MATAAC 'Aquarian' line does already exist,
It feels remiss to not at least mention it once (as possible inspiration/ short-cut/ source material):
http://www.mondayknight.com/Miniature%2 ... Index.html
Plus: inspirational frog-men, too
http://www.mondayknight.com/Miniature%2 ... rogmen.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 8:49 pm 
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deacon wrote:
I agree - they cant just be floating stone pyramids...


yes not just a pyramid but there's plenty of megalithic structures out there to pull inspiration from. For instance, some highly decorated stonhenge-ish thing could be grand to see.

Some other starting points:
-Golems (think strange statues come to life) or Moai
-Floating structures that resemble altars (think the very top of a Mayan pyramid only or a Polynesian Ahu)
-Remember that giant space probe from Star Trek? An "space-aztec"afied version of that or some other column like thing tipped on its side that's some huge weapon / battery system (from Wellsping's ideas).

Also there's plenty of other shaped buildings in Mesoamerica other than pyramids. Imagine this floating at you as a time portal disgorging troops?
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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:01 pm 
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wellspring wrote:
OK reposting ideas from previous thread (glad you like them):

Quote:
I think before we begin, we should also dump our conventional thinking about vehicle and infantry types. Familiarity with non-western doctrines is always a good thing when crafting a new army (for example, just plucking an idea from the news, Spetsnaz is often called the Russian special forces or the Russian SAS. Their real role and organization and training is so completely off-the-wall by US standards that people have trouble thinking about them without continually stuffing them back into the western model again and again). For the Froggies, we have to step even further back and revisit the foundations of their doctrine and capabilities or else we'll create "super-frog-tanks", backed up by "super-frog-VTOLs" and fire support from "super-frog-SP-artillery" until the "super-frog-infantry" shows up.

You might also want to consider re-visiting your modeling as well. New capabilities might give you the ability to do things that simply <i>look</i> eye-catchingly different on the playing field.

Have you considered partnering with Litko or Corsec? You could have them do a bazillion transparent acrylic disks with laser-etched symbols on them, and have those represent vehicular shields.

One easy thing you could do is haul out the standard science fantasy supertech and pull from that. Force fields and teleportation are obvious choices. Here's another: Let's look at the fundamental mechanics of a ground game and ask ourselves what kind of crazy things we could do that break those rules in the name of mind-twistingly dangerous super-science?

Here's some brainstorming:

  • Teleporting out of assault: instead of normal withdrawal, a unit simply nominates a position some number of centimeters away and moves their figures to there. Assault's over, sorry guys.
  • Energy tokens: Perhaps have some kind of energy mechanic where you can spend tokens to get something (shields? firepower?)
  • Shields: Not your garden-variety ablative ones. These are "you shall not pass" invulnerable types. Attacks must come from the flank or rear to have any effect at all. Maybe in exchange the froggies can't fire through the shield either.
  • Terrain-changing: Either to represent seismic changes, or perhaps an energy field between two froggie units. So anything crossing a line between two froggie units treats the ground as dangerous. Or anything coming within X centimeters. Or, hell, weird games with dimensions let you MOVE a terrain piece.
  • Time travel: Sure, let's screw with causality! Nominate a unit. Put a copy of that unit on the board, anywhere you choose, at any time (even during the opponent's turn). Place a "time rift" marker next to the unit. Any kills scored by the copy are put to the side. If the nominated unit is destroyed before the time rift closes, then the copy is removed and all its kills are returned to the board next to the rift as the paradox resolves. The froggie player can close the rift voluntarily by moving the nominated unit into contact with the rift. (Obviously, we'd need some mechanic to allow the unit coherence rules to work, but you see what I mean.)
  • Spacial rifts. Number up some pairs of "spacial rift" tokens. A unit can move freely between rifts, and a unit can even remain adjacent to both tokens-- as long as each half is in coherence with itself and one of the two tokens, then the whole unit is fine. Now we have a way for our frogs to hop!
  • Artillery: Normally, with some exceptions, indirect fire follows the barrage rules and direct fire uses the shooting rules. Why not reverse it? Nasty, carefully aimed shots arc around obstacles, while direct fire unleashes a firestorm of sheer, unmitigated heck.
  • Soul sucking: ok this is a stretch, but I wanted to think of something totally off the wall. How about having your weapons do no damage but attack their opponents' sentience directly? That is, the intellect, so it affects robots and bioconstructs too. Every attack is essentially anti-personnel, and numbers rather than armor or shields is the only defense. That makes infantry very strong but vehicles very vulnerable. Obviously, this creates a long list of balance and feasibiliity problems, but it came to mind and this is brainstorming.

ANyway, these are just a barrage of suggestions. The key is to make them both headscratchingly weird and also very powerful. So they kind of play an entirely different game from the other armies, and force the other armies to develop entirely different tactics to face them. Once we have that in mind, we can figure out what kind of hardware they use to implement their weirdness.


In terms of inspiration, how about we add a few races from fiction. In addition to the obvious one, I propose the Orz from Star Control, and the Vorlons from Babylon 5. Both are mysterious, possibly involved in our original evolution, and so hideously advanced that it's difficult for them to comprehend us, let alone vice versa.

How do you get vital war intelligence from a captive? A human would question and possibly torture the captive. The Phaerons digitally upload the enemy brain and reprogram it into cooperation. The Frogulans? They follow your worldline backwards and forewards to learn your entire history, planting sensor portals all along your existence, just out of sight along some hypergeometric pathway. They either release you, so your worldline can intersect with the enemy army again for still more information, or simply suspend you in time until needed.

They're not cruel, simply efficient and have a much longer and broader sense of the universe. They (reluctantly) act as soldiers on the scene themselves simply because their last attempt at a servant race ended in the Phaerons. They don't really have the stomach to control a race the way the Stygians' masters do. Their empire is as large as it needs to be, in fact, probably too large because it's a legacy from a time in their history when they needed to use naturally occurring space-time rather than simply manufacturing it themselves. Meanwhile, they've been in a war with various higher beings, including the Stygians' masters, for millions of years-- most of that in the future or quasi-time, and are trying to avoid being out-flanked into a world-line where the other minor races either become pawns of their enemies or ascend and destroy the Frogulans themselves. The very few volunteers from each generation who want to be warriors are more than enough to deploy vast armies, aggregated over thousands of years.

In terms of factions, the Frogulans are politically/culturally unified in a conventional sense; however, different points in their unimaginably long history (and different versions of them from different timelines) produce vastly different policies, color schemes, strategies, etc. These are called "epochs" and are for all intents and purposes factions. Since they all travel in time, and become more or less close to the current timeline depending on how the war is going, many epochs can be intervening at once in the same event, sometimes against one another, and sometimes even actually fighting one another. It's not uncommon for a frogulan emissary to casually reveal that he's dealt with you before in other timelines, or even to mistake you for an alternate "you". They'll sometimes do this on purpose to get an edge in negotiations; sometimes they want some stupid piece of trivia because it'll be useful maneuvering against you in some other timeline. To the frogulans, these are like different cities in the same country. To humans, it's arcane, abstruse, and a little scary.


This is gold.

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Great ideas


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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:50 pm 
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Quote:
...talented...

Quote:
...phenomenal...


:o Now I am blushing. Thank you for your kind words.


Wellspring has some excellent ideas. But i think time travel can get ridiculous and difficult very quickly. My proposal would be change time travel with communication through time. Wich is still ridiculus powerfull but not the complete domination wich time travel implies.


Here my thoughts from the old thread.

Quote:
I hab similar thoughts. Something like a link network between the Tzacol. The drone concept makes a lot of sense to me espacially if they are bio-engineered.
In the original fluff the Tzacol are masters of genetical engineering and have altered the evolution of many races in the universe. Even taken some creatures from earth (the orangutan like race from old 40k fluff).

I like the idea of biological constructs mixed with their absurd high level tech. So everything has a organic feel. The problem with a link network and organical weapons is that is very similar to the tyranids. But if the rules are different enough it could work very well.

As there are only very few Tzacols left the army structure should reflect that. Few UNits that are powerfull but ridiculus expansive. So a very small army.

For example (No real army list just a basic structure :P):

Tzacol Engineers
The Engineers are the Backbone of the Tzacol race. The are building an intergalactic network between there minds. They funciton as an communication hub for the few Tzacols throughout the universe.
On the battlefoield they provide the communication between ground- and spaceforces and there homebase.
All Tzacols are psykers (?) but the Engineers are using a spherical construct that further enhances their powers. With it they are able to evoke forces that can even destroy titans. But using this much power will reduce the mindlink to a mere whisper nothing more than a radio transmission. All local mindcommunication is focused in one engineer. This Tzacol is the local Mindhub that concentrates one cummunication with the mindnetwork. If this Tzacol dies the communication to the off planet hubs is broken and a lot of the longrange suports is without information. And longrange Suport like Warpfolds are not longer possible.
When there is great danger to the Tzacol, some engineers are fusing with there bigest bio-constructs. These machines are filled with enhancers, similar to the spheres, and give the fused Tzacol abilitiys that can destroy entire armys alone. But this equals a suicide mission as using this powerr will destroy the consctruct and the Tzacol alike. Only very few where able to survive the fusion and even less are able to use psy powers ever again.

Abilitys:
- Mindlink (connects all Tzacol on the batlefiedl) - all Tzacol can use the sight of all other Tzacol units (overpowered?)
- Mindhub (only one Tzacol per army can be the mindhub)
- Psy powers - some kind of support powers and one or to destructive powers
- Warp fold (only when mindhub is alive) - units/detachments can be teloported
-

Tzacol Warriors
Some Tzacol are chosen to support the Engineers in battle. These Individuals are embedded into a powerfull Armor. These Suits are the best infantry the Tzacol can field and the only Tzacol that are trained for combat.
These warriors are highly adaptable and have the best equipment to their disposal.

Abilitys:
- Mindlink (connects all Tzacol on the batlefiedl)
- lots of cool weapons

Constructs
These are biological engineered cyborg things. From infantry and tanks to titans.

Drones - Mostly cheap massproduced infantry/walker constructs

Skimmers - light tanks, assault constructs

Heavy Skimmers - Artillery and support units like shield generators

Flyers

Heavy Flyers

Titan Skimmers

Titan Flyers?

(changed the name to Tzacol in the text :) )

I still like some of my old ideas - like the mindlink and constructs. I imagine some giant 3D printing device where constructs are build and then warped into battle. XD

btw - I did not forget about my idea of making froogy spaceships :P

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 2:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Some Aztec/Mayan structures I put together for my Sci-fi Lizardmen forces ... just FYI ... to add to the discussion ... 8) Image Image I love the idea of Aztec/Mayan concept aliens !

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2014 6:47 pm 
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I think we should broaden our sources. To simply use meso-american sources, it will be too obvious. If we salt it with a few related cultures, then we'll have something uniquely Frogulan. For example, I was googling some ancient alphabets last night and the Assyrian cuneiform alphabet would look smashing in a hypermagitech army.


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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 12:13 am 
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Great structures L4
I hope all those packages behind the white board aren't prepacked sandwiches.
That would mean you are bunkering down for one big painting session. LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:14 am 
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Spheres should be included because they remind us about frogs. Can be used as design idea for energy weapons, shields or transport.

Image

I really like the previous idea of using transparant plastics instead of metal.

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 9:42 am 
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Just an idea, heavy infantry could be wearing round armour to make them look like turtleshells... No kidding, could be cool if cleverly designed.

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:13 am 
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Frog facts: Frogs only see in black and white, but they come in many colours to match their environments, but how do they know this :-\ anyways, this means lots of interesting colour schemes :) Also I think stealth technology would be important to them (stop them getting run over). They grow in size with age, shedding their skin and (like trees) their bones gain another recognisable ring, maybe this could be worked into their lore/characteristics. Leaders being the biggest of their kind being the most obvious. Maybe the shredded skins could be used.

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 Post subject: Re: Tzacol Concepts
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2014 10:34 am 
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The Tzacol will be a great addition to the current 6mm gamesystems indeed. Many color varieties provide interesting paint schemes. And the fact they are an ultra strong race will make them a welcome challenge.

Now about gamedesign: all races have their special strengths and playing methods. But they have a certain shortcomming too. Some are slow, some are weak, some are close combat only...
For the Tzacol, who are roughly based on amphibians, I see them dependent to water or moist at least. Their skins need to stay humid. So they'll need suits. Vulnerable suits...

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