Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 253 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:37 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:27 pm
Posts: 34
Why is cost of weapons range a linear function of range?

From my point of view, there is little added value in getting to shoot from 150 cm to 200 cm as terrain usually blocks LoS, whereas going from 50 cm to 75 cm is a huge advantage because 75 cm is the distance needed to get a shot of in first round.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 6:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Good question. The following reasons are, more or less, in order of importance.

1) Mostly because it is mathematically and logically simple. While having different values for different ranges would probably be more realistic (and I have - and still am - considering them), it would add to the complexity of an already rather complex system.

2) Because the formula cannot account for specific battlefield conditions, such as terrain. Like you, I tend to use a lot of LOS blocking terrain, but some people do not. If you have a terrain-sparse battlefield (or no LOS blocking terrain at all), then the difference between 150 and 200 is exactly as helpful as the distance between 50 and 100.

3) Indirect fire. The really long range weapons are mostly used for Indirect fire, and as that ignores terrain, the distances are just as important.

4) Scarcity. There are exactly 15 weapons in the whole of NetEpic Gold with a Range value of 200 or greater. I just now counted. I can list them if you like. In my current opinion, changing it for such a small number of weapons is probably not worth it. On the other hand, if several other people state opinions that it is, I may reconsider.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
I am currently working on a project related to the Points Formula. I am putting together a listing of "modules" that can be selected to create a model. All costs for these are based on current Points Formula values. This will allow a person to select options from a list to create (or convert) their model without having to do a lot of math. Obviously, there will still be a little math involved with adding together the costs of the modules, but that is minor.

The categories for the modules are the same as in the Formula. That is, Pinning Class, Movement (Terrain Access, Move, modifiers), Save (including modifiers), CAF (including modifiers; in sub-categories based on Pinning Class, Terrain Access, Move, and move modifiers), Weapon(s), and Special Abilities.

Before selecting modules, the person will have to know the desired Morale value for their new model, along with any Command radius or Order requirements. This is because I am listing each module with multiple values, in increments of 10%, to allow the user to not have to do their own multiplication.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:37 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I am currently working on a project related to the Points Formula. I am putting together a listing of "modules" that can be selected to create a model. All costs for these are based on current Points Formula values. This will allow a person to select options from a list to create (or convert) their model without having to do a lot of math. Obviously, there will still be a little math involved with adding together the costs of the modules, but that is minor.

The categories for the modules are the same as in the Formula. That is, Pinning Class, Movement (Terrain Access, Move, modifiers), Save (including modifiers), CAF (including modifiers; in sub-categories based on Pinning Class, Terrain Access, Move, and move modifiers), Weapon(s), and Special Abilities.

Before selecting modules, the person will have to know the desired Morale value for their new model, along with any Command radius or Order requirements. This is because I am listing each module with multiple values, in increments of 10%, to allow the user to not have to do their own multiplication.


Hi!

Do you mean like a little "program" or excel file that auto calculates when you enter values?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:44 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Not at the present time. At the moment, it is just a text list that people would make their selections from. I suppose such a file would be possible, but it is beyond my current skill level.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Not at the present time. At the moment, it is just a text list that people would make their selections from. I suppose such a file would be possible, but it is beyond my current skill level.


Hi!

Its beyond my skill too, unfortunately.

Perhaps a fan with such skills will step up. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:57 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
I am finding a lot of errors (sigh, still) in various areas as I go through every model and stand with a fine-tooth comb to create the modules. Thus I will be updating all of the affected Formula costs threads with the adjusted values once I am done.

I am also planning to adjust the formula at least once more to see if the costs of ultra-high-cost weapons (and other factors) can be brought down a bit. Most likely, I will do that by reducing the multiplier for the various Special Abilities that can be applied to Weapons, and probably other areas as well.

Thus making such a file at this time would be ill-advised as it would just need to be changed when that happens.

Still, making such a file (or program, or web application) IS something that I am planning on looking into in the future. It is just too low of a priority at this time.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:45 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
wow, 5 and a half years. Ouch. Sorry for not posting in a while. I am still refining the formula and am up to version 0.46 currently. I have been trying to edit the 1st, main post in this thread, but I keep getting a "Error 403: Forbidden", so I might have to start a new thread.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
And the forum won't let me start a new thread either. If I had to guess, it is an issue with too much text for a post, but it isn't telling me anything, so I don't know. So updating here for now.

Cumulative updates to v0.46:

Replace everything within "Terrain Access" with the following:

Terrain Access rates how well that model interacts with the terrain on the battlefield, based on the Movement Restrictions chart on page 30 of the Core Rules. In that chart, each green box is valued as +0.5, each yellow as +0.25, and each red box as 0. One imaginary box is added to each Model Type to simulate flat, level ground terrain and this is considered green for most types. Barricade, Trench, & Minefield are counted as one box. Light Building, Standard Building, and Fortification are considered one box.

Infantry & Light Artillery:
- Normal: 2.75 (4 Green, 3 Yellow, 1 Red)
- Amphibious: 3.5 (as Normal, but Green for Marsh & River/Lake)
- Jump/Skimmer/Flyer/Floater: 3.5 (can move through/over any terrain, but cannot end in Y/R)
- Aquatic: 1.5 (Marsh,River/Lake: Green; B/T/M,Building: Yellow; others: Red)
Cavalry, Walker, & Knight:
- Normal: 2 (2 Green, 4 Yellow, 2 Red)
- Amphibious: 3
- Jump/Skimmer/Flyer/Floater: 3.25
- Aquatic: 1.5 (as Aquatic for Infantry)
Vehicle & SH, Heavy Artillery:
- Normal: 1.75 (2 Green, 3 Yellow, 3 Red)
- Amphibious: 2.75
- Jump/Skimmer/Flyer/Floater: 3.25
- Aquatic: 1.25 (as Aquatic for Infantry, but Building: Red)
Titans & Praetorians:
- Normal: 3 (6 Green, 0 Yellow, 2 Red)
- Amphibious: 3.5
- Jump/Skimmer/Flyer/Floater: 3.75
- Aquatic: 1.5 (as Aquatic for Vehicle, but B/T/M: Green)

Any model with the Incorporeal or Phasing abilities: 4.5
Do not use Amphibious Terrain Access value for default move if the water move value differs.

--------------------------

The modifiers under "Movement Type" have some adjustments. Remove entries for Jump and Skimmer. Change Flyer to 1.25. Change Floater to 1.5. Add the following modifiers:

.Jump Jets: 1.125 (Revenant Titan)
.Can perform a Pop-Up: 1.1 (usually reserved for Skimmers, but others could with special gear)
.Flyer - straight line only: 1.2
.Skm/Fly: 1.5 (can act as either a Skimmer or a Flyer each turn)
.Righteous Zeal [triple move on Charge when HQ stand dead]: 1.5 (Sisters Repentia)
.triple Move on Charge: 2 (Mentor Legion Elite Cadre)
.if moves more than half listed Move, destroyed on 1 on D6: 0.75
__ Maneuverability (select one. If not specified, default is Good/Agile.)
.Good/Agile: 1 (No limit on turning per turn.)
.Average: turns limited to a maximum of 90 deg total/game turn: 0.5 (most Titans, Praetorians)
.Poor: turns limited to 90 if on Advance or 45 if on Charge: 0.375 (Imperator)
.Clumsy: turns limited to a maximum of 45 degrees total each game turn: 0.25 (Mega-Gargant)

Add the following to the end of Movement Type:

___ Fixed value modifiers:
If Amphibious & water move is different from base move, then in the SA modifiers field put: Aquatic terrain value * difference in move (water - base) * any other modifiers above. So if base is 20 and water is 10, then the cost would be: 1.5*(10-20)*1 or 1.5*-10*1 or -15. This would be noted in the SA area as: Amphibious(10).

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:15 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Cumulative update to v0.46 continued.

Armor Modifiers. Add the following.

.gains listed save against all damage, including sources that do not normally allow saves - including Close Combat: 2
.gains +2 vs environmental hazards (IE: Chemical, Radiation, Virus, etc): 1.25

Add the following new, not multiplier modifier:

_ Added Modifiers
.Gains +1 to Armor value if winning: add 0.5 to base value before applying multiplier modifiers

Remove the modifier for a modified Titan head, as this is covered in the system for figuring out a Titan's equivalent armor value.


CAF updates.

Replace the initial paragraph in CAF with the following. [I have recently been noticing that adjusting the CAF cost with the movement data is skewing values too much. Eliminating them seems to be helping.]

The CAF is added to the unit's roll in Close Combat. The CAF value is more useful for a model that is of a higher Pinning class. Multiply Pinning Class value (IE, 1 to 5) by the CAF value, then multiply by all of the following modifiers that the model may have.

Add the following to CAF multiplier modifiers:

.Psychic, Physical: 1.5
.Suppression Shield [F5+ save in CC]: 2 (Arbites Assault)
.gains +1 CAF when in a building or when fighting a foe who is in a building: 1.5 (Celestial)

Add the following after the multiplier modifiers. The following replaces the note for Titan weapons.

_ Added modifiers (add these to base value before applying multipliers)
.Gains +1d6 to CAF if winning: +1.75
.Titan Weapon that adds X to CAF: +X unless adds +1d6 then +3.5
.Gain +n to CAF against a specific race: +0.5 per +1

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Cumulative update to v0.46 continued.

Ranged Attacks

Change value for Small Teardrop to 3.75. Change value for Large Teardrop to 8.4. Replace the line that stars with "For templates not on the list above..." with:

For templates not found on the list above, use the following guidelines:
_ For circles, squares, rectangles, or other regular polygons, multiply the length by the width (or the diameter by the diameter) then divide by 10.
_ For a Cone, multiply the length by half of the width at the furthest point, and divide by 10. So for a Cone that is 10cm long and 5cm wide at the end, we multiply 10 (length) by 2.5 (half the width) / 10 or 10 * 2.5 / 10 or 25/10 or 2.5.
_ For 'Teardrop' shapes, start by finding the value for the circle part. Then find the value for the tail part, see Cone above. Add half the circle part value to the tail part value. For example, the "Small Teardrop" has a circle part 5cm in diameter, and a tail 10cm long. Thus the circle part has a value of (5*5/10 = 25/10 = 2.5) 2.5, half of which is 1.25, and the tail part has a value of (10*2.5/10 = 25/10 = 2.5) 2.5. Adding 1.25 to 2.5 gives 3.75.

Under Range, add the following at the end:

The range value for a Template that begins adjacent to the shooter is equal to half the length of the Template divided by 50cm. If the Template can be placed not-adjacent to the shooter, use the normal range value, based on where the center of the template can be placed.

Under To Hit Number, add the following at the end:

If the stand or model gains +1 to hit when winning (or some other variable that - in theory - should happen about 50% of the time), increase the To Hit modifier by 0.25.

Under TSM, replace the second sentence of the first paragraph with:

The baseline is a TSM of 0 (Zero), as it causes just enough damage to take out a model with no save. Values increase (or decrease) as the damage they cause changes. If a model with no Save is hit by a weapon with a +1 TSM, it gets a Save at 6+. If the TSM is +2, then 5+.

Add the following to Other Weapon Modifiers:

Ignore Cover from allied models (IC-A): 1.25
LOS not required to target: 1.5

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 7:53 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Cumulative update to v0.46 continued.

Special Abilities. Add the following.

Camo, lesser - 5 (gains -1 to be hit when in cover and on First Fire)
Camo - 10 (gains -1 to be hit when in cover or difficult terrain)
Daemon - 1
Save+n - 1pt per +1 for an uncommon damage type (Acid, Cold, etc), 2pts per +1 for a common type
Summon - Cost of the stand(s) or model(s) to be summoned, multiplied by uses per battle (see Weapon modifiers), and multiplied by how likely the summoned things are to appear. Value is ratio of roll needed over 6, so 5+ is 2/6, 4+ is 3/6, etc.
Unpinnable - 5 (Cannot be pinned in CC. Usually gained by being Skimmer, Flyer, or Floater, but a few others have this as well: Eldar Warp Spider for one.)
Warp Jump - cost is terrain access of 4, times distance divided by 5, times uses (5 or more per battle is 1, 4 per is 0.8, 3 is 0.6, etc), times usage modifier (if used instead of normal movement: 1, if replaces attacks: 0.5). The default Warp Jump is 200cm and replaces attacks with unlimited uses per battle. This costs 4*200/5*1*0.5 or 4*40/2 or 160/2 or 80. This movement ignores all terrain and models. The destination must be large enough to hold model and be terrain this model has as green. Does not require LOS.


Replace value for Khorne Daemon Engine with:
0 (Apply modifiers for If winning: [Armor Saves & to-hit +1, +1d6 CAF] in their own categories)

Replace value for Medic and Mechanic abilities with:
5 per value, so 6+ is 5pts, 5+ is 10, etc

Replace 3 line entries for Psychic Save with the following 1 line:
Psychic Save n (ImmPsy) - 5 per value, so 6+ is 5pts, 5+ is 10, etc

Remove line entry for "Tow" as such is handled by the Transport subsystem.


Add the following to the listing of multiplier modifiers:

- Berserk: 0.8 (cannot use ranged attacks, must charge nearest foe if not in CC)
- Decoy: 1.2 (If hit by ranged attack, attacker rerolls To-Hit. If 2nd roll hits, model is hit.)
- Deep Strike, slow: 1.15 (Imperial Dropship)
- Dodge#: 1 +0.1 per #, so if 2, then 1.2 (Ignores attack on a successful d6 roll. 6+ = 1, 5+ = 2, etc)
- ECM: 1.2 (May only be targeted by LOS. Indirect Barrage via FO or Markerlights scatter once.)
- Ign(ore) Obj(ectives): 0.9
- Ign(ore) Stealth: 1.2 (includes Improved, Greater, and Perfect)
- Regeneration 6+: 1.1
- Regeneration 5+: 1.15
- Stealth-Gr(eater): 1.4 (no cover required, no min range, ends when attacks, EP)
- Stealth-Per(fect): 1.5 (as Greater, but does not end when attacks, EP)
- Zeal: 1.1

Replace entry for Regeneration with:
- Regeneration 4+: 1.2

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 8:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1542
Cumulative update to v0.46 continued.

I am removing the exception for Daemon Engines from the "That Didn't Hurt" ability for Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes, as while Chaos doesn't generally follow logic, the formula should. Thus the value of a Daemon Engine that is a Greater or Prince will be reduced by 20 points.


As far as i can tell, that is all of the changes to date. Aside from a few, new Faction specific modifiers. I will look into posting revised model and formation values, but it may take some time to type all that up.

For future version(s), I am considering reducing the value of weapon multiplier modifiers to be increments of 0.1 instead of 0.5. Possibly all multiplier modifiers, not sure yet. This is largely to attempt to reduce the silly high values of Magnus' Eye Beam, and various other top-end weapon systems to more manageable values.

If anyone has any suggestions or comments, please post.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 253 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net