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Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)

 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Hi!

I can't help but go back to my proposed idea of making first fire into "overwatch". The problem we are experiencing is that first fire as we know it has no place in your system. The only reason is was good before was due to the fact that you did fire first in the sequence.

With your system there is no "firing first". So we are left to figure out ways to make it worthwhile. Unfortunately, we have only been able to achieve making "too good" or not good enough.

I have thought some more about his so how about this:

First Fire (overwatch). A unit on first fire orders may not move. However a unit of fire has a zone of overwatch that extends 50cm. Any enemy unit that crosses its zone of overwatch may be fired upon with all its weapons. Enemy formations that suffer casualties require a morale check to continue movement. If it fails the check the formation stops when the firing occurred (firing player determines where).

An enemy formation may be fired upon only once in a turn by a formation on first fire orders. However the formation on first fire may fire upon any different formations that crosses its 50cm zone.

Skimmer units may perform a "pop up" attack where they gain LOS over an intervening obstacle to fire but are limited to the 50cm range of the overwatch zone. However they may perform multiple such actions against different formations that enter the overwatch zone.

Units with ranges inferior to 50cm have their overwatch zone decreased to the maximum range of their weapons (for example a unit with a range of 25cm can only overwatch at 25cm range not 50cm).

Artillery units on first fire orders are restricted to the 50cm range for overwatch. Artillery units with a minimum range (such as bombards and other type mortar weapons) may not be given first fire orders.

First fire orders (overwatch) can fire at other formations within its 50cm zone even if they do not move.

Note that I solved several issues.

1. No bonus is necessary. The ability to fire at different formations that start or enter the zone is more than enough of a benefit.

2. Pop ups. They can be done, but at a cost. They may do it multiple times on first fire orders but the ranged is capped at 50cm. This means if you want to fire at full range use advance. Pop-ups is a defense posture. It also puts a limit on pop up abuse.

3. I got rid of the close combat bonuses of my previous proposal. They are not necessary. A unit of first fire orders can shoot all its weapons at a formation that moves to it in close combat (its in its zone) and if it causes casualties the formation makes a morale check potentially stopping the assault! This alone is a powerful tool and no additional bonuses are needed.

4. Artillery. I never liked how static they were. This promotes "shoot and scoot" where artillery needs to relocate after firing (like in reality). But static artillery becomes powerful on first fire orders to defend (as it should be).

I think this adds a layer of tactics we don't have now and it handles the problems you pointed out while eliminating all use of bonuses and their potential for unbalance.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Exciting idea well worth more investigation!

I do however have a few reservations, mainly that:

Limiting the range of the pop-up attacks seriously alters how the Eldar in particular would operate. I'm worried that the change may leave the Eldar exposed and unbalance the Eldar force in general. Would you still buy Tempests at 900 points if they could only use their pop ups if they were within 50cm of an enemy? I do appreciate the fact that they could be lethal with overwatch, which leads me to my second point...

Because overwatch is so lethal, it could seriously alter tactics and reduce both armies to shooting from long range (so as not to get caught inside the overwatch zone).


I think the best thing to do is get on with playtesting! How would you feel about the prospect of trying out both versions of the FF rules?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:59 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Exciting idea well worth more investigation!

I do however have a few reservations, mainly that:

Limiting the range of the pop-up attacks seriously alters how the Eldar in particular would operate. I'm worried that the change may leave the Eldar exposed and unbalance the Eldar force in general. Would you still buy Tempests at 900 points if they could only use their pop ups if they were within 50cm of an enemy? I do appreciate the fact that they could be lethal with overwatch, which leads me to my second point...

Because overwatch is so lethal, it could seriously alter tactics and reduce both armies to shooting from long range (so as not to get caught inside the overwatch zone).


I think the best thing to do is get on with playtesting! How would you feel about the prospect of trying out both versions of the FF rules?


Hi!

Remember you still get the full range on advance. Therefore nothing has really changed in that regard. A tempest host is still worth its points. The only difference is how you use them now. You can still use advance orders, shoot at 100cm and then move. I'd say it makes them more effective, not less.

You can't think in standard net epic terms anymore once you do combined activations. Advance move and shoot is better than the original first fire, especially since on advance you can shoot at any point! For a skimmer this is REALLY good!

Add to this they get pop ups in overwatch mode, repeatedly. That' pretty powerful.


Regarding the second, you could stay back to avoid the zones, but how would you win? If you don't advance to take objectives you don't earn VP's for objectives. The overwatch mode obligates opponents to move, because if you don't how would you get your formations in an advantageous position to use overwatch mode?

Note that I am not sold on the 50cm overwatch range yet. I think 25cm is probably better, since its more a defensive measure. Maybe even 35cm. I'll see which is better after some testing (I suspect 50cm is too much).

I'll give them both a try. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:26 am 
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primarch wrote:
Remember you still get the full range on advance. Therefore nothing has really changed in that regard. A tempest host is still worth its points. The only difference is how you use them now. You can still use advance orders, shoot at 100cm and then move. I'd say it makes them more effective, not less.

You can't think in standard net epic terms anymore once you do combined activations. Advance move and shoot is better than the original first fire, especially since on advance you can shoot at any point! For a skimmer this is REALLY good!

Add to this they get pop ups in overwatch mode, repeatedly. That' pretty powerful.


I've always played with Tempests at the back end of the board behind cover, popping up and unleashing hell while the opponent can do nothing about it. Now I could put them behind a bit of cover advance out, fire, then return behind the cover, but what can be seen - and therefore the range of targets - from the pop-up position is going to be greatly dimished by firing at ground level. Moving them into the overwatch position so as to get the unlimited pop-up attacks is powerful indeed but by getting into such proximity to the enemy does put them in harm's way. Look forward to seeing how this goes in your playtest.


primarch wrote:
Regarding the second, you could stay back to avoid the zones, but how would you win? If you don't advance to take objectives you don't earn VP's for objectives. The overwatch mode obligates opponents to move, because if you don't how would you get your formations in an advantageous position to use overwatch mode?


By sitting outside the overwatch zone you would sit and fire at the opponent and let them come to you, whittle them down and then you'd both go into overwatch mode... So long as you hold the objectives in your own half of the board you can win by fighting a war of attrition. I personally would not be making forays into enemy territory knowing that if I enter those overwatch zones I'm likely to see my troops decimated.

primarch wrote:
Note that I am not sold on the 50cm overwatch range yet. I think 25cm is probably better, since its more a defensive measure. Maybe even 35cm. I'll see which is better after some testing (I suspect 50cm is too much).


I have another proposition:

Focussed Fire (rather than First Fire): The vehicle does not move providing weapon crews with the best opportunity to fire upon enemy forces. This provides units with 2 options:

1) +1 on to hit rolls, -1 TSM for target vehicle. May snap fire without penalty.

OR

2) Overwatch gains normal weapon range but can fire twice with standard to hit rolls (+1 for focussed fire and -1 for snap fire negate one another). The player whose unit is on overwatch can opt to fire if something moves through his overwatch zone or refrain from doing so, waiting for other targets. Once he opts to fire once, the counter is flipped up and left next to the unit. Once he has fired a second time, the counter is removed. Note that the double overwatch may not be fired at the same target; ie only one overwatch shot can be fired at an enemy activation.


Note: While skimmers can pop up on FF, they may not do so in overwatch. This means that if they want to overwatch, they need to sit out in open terrain. But, for fans of the old sitting behind terrain and popping up (me!), they can still do that.

I think this makes a nicer balance and is easier done. By reducing the lethality of overwatch but extending the range, it would be more difficult to avoid enemy overwatch zones and forrays into enemy territory would be more attractive.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:07 pm 
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For the record, I feel that gaining unlimited shots per turn is very overpowered, and just limiting the range for some units is not a significant balancing factor. I say some units, as many units already have range of 50cm or less, so those units are not penalized in any way. Bissler's proposal above could be a reasonable alternative.

As an example of overpowered, imagine a Titan with three Volcano Cannons and a Fire Control Tower sitting on Overwatch. Anything that enters it's zone of control is dead, and this lasts all turn, every turn. Even with Bissler's version, the first six things that enter it's field are dead, but after that forces can move in. Yes, it's an extreme example, but you know someone will do that...

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Quote:
I've always played with Tempests at the back end of the board behind cover, popping up and unleashing hell while the opponent can do nothing about it. Now I could put them behind a bit of cover advance out, fire, then return behind the cover, but what can be seen - and therefore the range of targets - from the pop-up position is going to be greatly dimished by firing at ground level. Moving them into the overwatch position so as to get the unlimited pop-up attacks is powerful indeed but by getting into such proximity to the enemy does put them in harm's way. Look forward to seeing how this goes in your playtest.


After my last post i spent the rest of the day running simulations (as thought experiments, but also with some tokens and die rolls). I realized that with the combined activations we're still thinking standard net epic. Why tie pop ups with first fire at all?

Thus, since under the alternate system when a formation is on advance orders it can move and fire (at any point of the move). All you need to add is:

Units with the skimmer ability may forgo their move and perform a pop up to fire their weapons.

With that statement you get the same effect of pop ups you have now and you free it from the problematic first fire order.

The Eldar or any skimmer heavy force will function as normal under this rule.

Quote:
By sitting outside the overwatch zone you would sit and fire at the opponent and let them come to you, whittle them down and then you'd both go into overwatch mode... So long as you hold the objectives in your own half of the board you can win by fighting a war of attrition. I personally would not be making forays into enemy territory knowing that if I enter those overwatch zones I'm likely to see my troops decimated.


Point taken and conceded. :)

Quote:
I have another proposition:

Focussed Fire (rather than First Fire): The vehicle does not move providing weapon crews with the best opportunity to fire upon enemy forces. This provides units with 2 options:

1) +1 on to hit rolls, -1 TSM for target vehicle. May snap fire without penalty.


Let me ask for clarification, the unit that fires gets a +1 bonus and it also gets its armored lowered by 1 point (this is the same as giving a TSM bonus to the firing unit)?

This simulates the unit not moving a making an easier target to gain more precise firing, correct?

Quote:
OR

2) Overwatch gains normal weapon range but can fire twice with standard to hit rolls (+1 for focussed fire and -1 for snap fire negate one another). The player whose unit is on overwatch can opt to fire if something moves through his overwatch zone or refrain from doing so, waiting for other targets. Once he opts to fire once, the counter is flipped up and left next to the unit. Once he has fired a second time, the counter is removed. Note that the double overwatch may not be fired at the same target; ie only one overwatch shot can be fired at an enemy activation.


Note: While skimmers can pop up on FF, they may not do so in overwatch. This means that if they want to overwatch, they need to sit out in open terrain. But, for fans of the old sitting behind terrain and popping up (me!), they can still do that.

I think this makes a nicer balance and is easier done. By reducing the lethality of overwatch but extending the range, it would be more difficult to avoid enemy overwatch zones and forrays into enemy territory would be more attractive.

Thoughts?


If we shift pop-ups to advance fire, then we don't need to worry about the skimmer issue on first fire.

I like the idea of trade offs. You want a +1 bonus to hit, your armor goes down. I like that a lot. It also makes them strong in defense since charging units with a +1 bonus to fire usually means a fair amount of casualties.

I think the first alternate is so good and simple that I would not bother with the second "overwatch" alternative. A little more to keep track of than most would want to do.

First fire as +1 to hit and -TSM to firing unit seems to be the way to go.

If you agree Bissler, I think we have reached consensus. :)

I will be playing a test game with that first fire interpretation if so.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:52 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
For the record, I feel that gaining unlimited shots per turn is very overpowered, and just limiting the range for some units is not a significant balancing factor. I say some units, as many units already have range of 50cm or less, so those units are not penalized in any way. Bissler's proposal above could be a reasonable alternative.

As an example of overpowered, imagine a Titan with three Volcano Cannons and a Fire Control Tower sitting on Overwatch. Anything that enters it's zone of control is dead, and this lasts all turn, every turn. Even with Bissler's version, the first six things that enter it's field are dead, but after that forces can move in. Yes, it's an extreme example, but you know someone will do that...


Hi!

Agreed. I have warmed to Bisslers simple idea of trading a +1 bonus to hit for a -TSM to firing unit. Simple and effective (also distinct in execution and impact to advance and charge orders).

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:55 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Agreed. I have warmed to Bisslers simple idea of trading a +1 bonus to hit for a -TSM to firing unit. Simple and effective (also distinct in execution and impact to advance and charge orders).

Thanks!

Primarch


Oh! This wasn't my intention at all! The idea was that the Focussed Fire gave a bonus of +1 for rolls to hit AND a -1 TSM modifier for the model hit by the shot - with time to pick and choose their target they could aim at the weak spot in the target's armour.

I was seeing this as a trade off for the double-fire gained on overwatch. I know you had concerns about tracking who had fired, but I was hoping the fliping of the order would make the book-keeping relatively easy. Magnus is right though about it being powerful, perhaps put in a -1 to both overwatch shots could balance out this a little?

I'm happy for this to be dropped altogether though if the feeling is it will unbalance the game.

My suggestion for punishing units that get the +1 bonus for FF would be that enemy units returning fire upon them get a +1 to hit them. This would reflect the fact that by sitting stationary they are easier target to hit.

Who would have known FF would cause so much trouble! I reckon we're getting there though!

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:23 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Agreed. I have warmed to Bisslers simple idea of trading a +1 bonus to hit for a -TSM to firing unit. Simple and effective (also distinct in execution and impact to advance and charge orders).

Thanks!

Primarch


Oh! This wasn't my intention at all! The idea was that the Focussed Fire gave a bonus of +1 for rolls to hit AND a -1 TSM modifier for the model hit by the shot - with time to pick and choose their target they could aim at the weak spot in the target's armour.

I was seeing this as a trade off for the double-fire gained on overwatch. I know you had concerns about tracking who had fired, but I was hoping the fliping of the order would make the book-keeping relatively easy. Magnus is right though about it being powerful, perhaps put in a -1 to both overwatch shots could balance out this a little?

I'm happy for this to be dropped altogether though if the feeling is it will unbalance the game.

My suggestion for punishing units that get the +1 bonus for FF would be that enemy units returning fire upon them get a +1 to hit them. This would reflect the fact that by sitting stationary they are easier target to hit.

Who would have known FF would cause so much trouble! I reckon we're getting there though!


Hi!

Ah, okay, I misunderstood.

I'm okay with some kind of penalty to off set the +1 bonus on first fire, otherwise its too good. I think a +1 is so good that it doesn't need the -1TSM, makes first fire too powerful.

I'm not sure of the equivalency of the math regarding a -1 to the firing units save versus giving a +1 to units that fire at it, but it may be similar. Plus its easy to remember (everyone gets a +1 to hit firing unit and units firing at it).

I don't think your second option is overly complex, but not everyone thinks like we do. ;)

Which is why something really simple is better.

In summary, first fire, no move +1 to hit and to +1 bonus to fire at units on first fire (A +1 bonus both ways).

Is this our consensus?

Oh and I forgot, you okay with pop ups in advance as I proposed them?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Yes to the summary... see how it goes for the pop-ups in your playtest? It will make them more powerful so I'm not sold on this idea.

My personal inclination is to keep pop-ups for FF order. I would say that skimmers can do the FF order as outlined above but if they opt to pop up the movement involved would negate the bonuses and penalties given.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:38 pm 
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Hi!

As an aside these are the projected forces for test run number one.

The intent is to have a wide mix of forces to test all alternate systems.

Imperial Guard 6000 points total

Gorgon assault 600
Tactical Company 600
Hydra squadron 300
Heavy Platoon + Chimeras 300
Heavy platoon + chimeras 300
Rough rider company 600
Artillery Company 600
thunderbolts 250
marauders 350
Leman Russ Company 550
Shadow Sword Company 650
Warlord titan 900 (plasma cannon, volcano cannon, macrocannon, gatling cannon)

Eldar 6000 points total

Defender Warhost 850
warlock 125
Swooping hawks (2) 300
Dark Reapers 250
Dire Avengers 125
Jetbike Host 550
Howling Banshees + Wave Serpents 300
Striking Scorpions + wave Serpents 300
Firestorm AA 150
Tempest Host 900
Phoenix fighter bomber 300
Nightwing 300
Vampire Troop Carrier 100
Doom weavers 150
Warp Hunters 200
Phantom 600 (Double Pulsar)
Phantom 600 (Double Pulsar)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:44 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Yes to the summary... see how it goes for the pop-ups in your playtest? It will make them more powerful so I'm not sold on this idea.

My personal inclination is to keep pop-ups for FF order. I would say that skimmers can do the FF order as outlined above but if they opt to pop up the movement involved would negate the bonuses and penalties given.


Hi!

Hehe, old habits die hard, eh? Your too used to pop ups and first fire together. ;) ;D

You do realize that would you propose is no different from what I proposed in actual effect?

I proposed using advance orders and if you pop up you can't move, no bonuses. You proposed first fire orders and if you pop up no bonuses or penalties. Its the same effect, except for the order used.

Actually, if this is the case, might as well keep it on first fire then. :P :D

First fire: +1 to hit and +1 to be hit by other units. Units with skimmer ability may use a pop up attack, but gain no bonus to fire and no bonus for return fire.

Is that about right?

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:19 pm 
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primarch wrote:
I proposed using advance orders and if you pop up you can't move, no bonuses. You proposed first fire orders and if you pop up no bonuses or penalties. Its the same effect, except for the order used.

Actually, if this is the case, might as well keep it on first fire then. :P :D


:-[ Oh yeah, so it is! Yeah, if they can't move when popping up then think it should stay FF. If nothing else, it'll keep the purists happy!

primarch wrote:
First fire: +1 to hit and +1 to be hit by other units. Units with skimmer ability may use a pop up attack, but gain no bonus to fire and no bonus for return fire.

Is that about right?

Primarch


Yeah, spot on! We found common ground in the end! Result! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:22 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
I proposed using advance orders and if you pop up you can't move, no bonuses. You proposed first fire orders and if you pop up no bonuses or penalties. Its the same effect, except for the order used.

Actually, if this is the case, might as well keep it on first fire then. :P :D


:-[ Oh yeah, so it is! Yeah, if they can't move when popping up then think it should stay FF. If nothing else, it'll keep the purists happy!

primarch wrote:
First fire: +1 to hit and +1 to be hit by other units. Units with skimmer ability may use a pop up attack, but gain no bonus to fire and no bonus for return fire.

Is that about right?

Primarch


Yeah, spot on! We found common ground in the end! Result! ;D


Hi!

VICTORY! ;D

Okay, now I have the parameters for my test game!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:12 pm 
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Apologies, meant to comment on your army lists: look interesting! Since I don't have any, I'm looking forward to seeing how aerial units affect gameplay.

Something that just occurred to me that is a problem with the +1 to hit roll & +1 to hit units on FF: Are the rolls cumulative?

ie FF unit fires on unit on FF: +1 for being on FF, +1 to hit FF unit, ie +2 to hit.

Also, what if orders haven't been revealed? That would mean having to flip the order counter.

Sorry for causing trouble just when it seemed like we'd gotten there!

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