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I've always played with Tempests at the back end of the board behind cover, popping up and unleashing hell while the opponent can do nothing about it. Now I could put them behind a bit of cover advance out, fire, then return behind the cover, but what can be seen - and therefore the range of targets - from the pop-up position is going to be greatly dimished by firing at ground level. Moving them into the overwatch position so as to get the unlimited pop-up attacks is powerful indeed but by getting into such proximity to the enemy does put them in harm's way. Look forward to seeing how this goes in your playtest.
After my last post i spent the rest of the day running simulations (as thought experiments, but also with some tokens and die rolls). I realized that with the combined activations we're still thinking standard net epic. Why tie pop ups with first fire at all?
Thus, since under the alternate system when a formation is on advance orders it can move and fire (at any point of the move). All you need to add is:
Units with the skimmer ability may forgo their move and perform a pop up to fire their weapons.
With that statement you get the same effect of pop ups you have now and you free it from the problematic first fire order.
The Eldar or any skimmer heavy force will function as normal under this rule.
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By sitting outside the overwatch zone you would sit and fire at the opponent and let them come to you, whittle them down and then you'd both go into overwatch mode... So long as you hold the objectives in your own half of the board you can win by fighting a war of attrition. I personally would not be making forays into enemy territory knowing that if I enter those overwatch zones I'm likely to see my troops decimated.
Point taken and conceded.
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I have another proposition:
Focussed Fire (rather than First Fire): The vehicle does not move providing weapon crews with the best opportunity to fire upon enemy forces. This provides units with 2 options:
1) +1 on to hit rolls, -1 TSM for target vehicle. May snap fire without penalty.
Let me ask for clarification, the unit that fires gets a +1 bonus and it also gets its armored lowered by 1 point (this is the same as giving a TSM bonus to the firing unit)?
This simulates the unit not moving a making an easier target to gain more precise firing, correct?
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2) Overwatch gains normal weapon range but can fire twice with standard to hit rolls (+1 for focussed fire and -1 for snap fire negate one another). The player whose unit is on overwatch can opt to fire if something moves through his overwatch zone or refrain from doing so, waiting for other targets. Once he opts to fire once, the counter is flipped up and left next to the unit. Once he has fired a second time, the counter is removed. Note that the double overwatch may not be fired at the same target; ie only one overwatch shot can be fired at an enemy activation.
Note: While skimmers can pop up on FF, they may not do so in overwatch. This means that if they want to overwatch, they need to sit out in open terrain. But, for fans of the old sitting behind terrain and popping up (me!), they can still do that.
I think this makes a nicer balance and is easier done. By reducing the lethality of overwatch but extending the range, it would be more difficult to avoid enemy overwatch zones and forrays into enemy territory would be more attractive.
Thoughts?
If we shift pop-ups to advance fire, then we don't need to worry about the skimmer issue on first fire.
I like the idea of trade offs. You want a +1 bonus to hit, your armor goes down. I like that a lot. It also makes them strong in defense since charging units with a +1 bonus to fire usually means a fair amount of casualties.
I think the first alternate is so good and simple that I would not bother with the second "overwatch" alternative. A little more to keep track of than most would want to do.
First fire as +1 to hit and -TSM to firing unit seems to be the way to go.
If you agree Bissler, I think we have reached consensus.
I will be playing a test game with that first fire interpretation if so.
Primarch