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The Great Points Formula Debate!

 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Hi!

Give me a day or so to digest all this, since I have to get out of some work related issues first.

However I must thank you profusely in taking such an interest in this.

When I made my Heresy rules I was lucky enough to get an actual PHD in mathematics guys to check my numbers to make the system mathematically coherent.

You are doing the same here for me now, so thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:58 am 
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Bah, it doesn't take a degree in mathematics to make something like this work. Just trial and error, and lots of tweaking. Like you often do with your 'mini games' you've mentioned.

That said, you are quite welcome. I've probably said this before, but I've often thought about doing up something much like this. I just never got around to coming up with the basic framework. Since you have provided that, I can do what I do well, which is tweaking. So I'm also doing this for my benefit as well.

No worries, take the time that you need.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:25 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I've had a couple more thoughts about this.

As to pinning, I was looking at the list of pinning classes on page 23 of the rules PDF and it struck me that there are the costs right there. That is:
Infantry and Light Artillery cost 1 point
Cavalry and Walkers cost 2 points
Vehicles and Heavy Artillery cost 3
Super Heavy and Knights cost 4
Praetorians and Titans cost 5

Alternatively, these costs could stack. By stack, I mean that I&LA would still cost 1, but C&W would cost 3 (1+2), V&HA would cost 6 (1+2+3), SH&K would be 10 (1+2+3+4), and P&T would be 15.

Either way these points are done, if the unit is a Skimmer or Flyer the Pinning cost should double.

For Movement class, things are a bit more complex, yet really not. Again, I was looking at the chart on page 30 when it hit me that we could say that each green box is 1 point, yellow is 0, and red is -1. This results in:
Infantry & Light Artillery: 2 (3 G, 1 R)
Cavalry, Walker, & Knight: -1 (1 G, 2 R)
Vehicles & Heavy Artillery: -4 (1 G, 5 R)
Titans & Praetorians: 3 (7 G, 4 R)
There is no category for Super Heavy on the movement chart. This needs to be fixed.

Combining these means Unit Type costs of:
Type: linear or stacking
Infantry & Light Artillery: 3 or 3
Cavalry & Walker: 1 or 2
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: -1 or 2
Super Heavy: ? or ?
Knight: 3 or 9
Praetorian & Titan: 8 or 18

What do people think about these?


A couple more thoughts I've just had in the last few minutes...

I'd guess that Super Heavy would use either the 'Vehicle' or 'Praetorian' column, but cannot figure out which it would be. If V, then SH is 0 or 6, if P then SH is 7 or 13. Either way (V or P), I think we should use the stacking method, because of my next idea.

Instead of Movement costing a flat 1 per 5cm, the cost per 5cm would be Unit Type cost as above. Thus, an Infantry stand would cost 3 per 5cm, while a Vehicle would cost 2 per, and a Knight would be 9 per. Also, instead of a flat points cost, Jump, Skimmer, & Flyer would be multipliers. Probably *1.5 for Jump and *2 for the other two. Possibly more for Flyer, not sure though.

Sorry to give you yet more to think about, but these thoughts came to me and I figured I'd best get them down in pixels before I forgot them.

There are some ways in which that I would like to divide 'Vehicle' into wheeled and tracked categories, but that might be too fiddly to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:31 am 
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Right, with instituting the above ideas (stacking method for unit cost & unit cost per 5cm) and reducing the base cost per attack / BP, Save, and CAF to 4 and Morale to 2 per point, the calculated costs for Space Marine units with no unaccounted SA are now:

Assault: 44.5 (35)
Devastator: 45 (50)
Flamer: 31 (35)
Tactical: 29 (35)
Attack Bike: 33 (35)
LS Tornado: 61 (40)
LS Typhoon: 59 (40)
Land Speeder: 65 (40)
Marine Bike: 26 (30)
Predator: 67 (65)
Sabre: 39 (35)
Vindicator: 65 (50)
Rapier: 21 (25)
Thudd Gun: 33 (35)
Whirlwind: 57 (50)

These values are a bit better, but it could still use a bit of tweaking. I'll have to look at some non-Marines soon. If you want a breakdown of the details of any unit(s) calculation(s), just let me know, just in case you cannot replicate one.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:17 pm 
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Just in case it will make your life easier, I've ~rewritten your OP (some of it anyway) with the changes and additions I'm proposing. Hopefully this will be easier to read and follow.

Adjusted Unit costs system [Base system by Primarch, tweaked by Magnus. Some values are tested, some are off-the-cuff, and all are up for debate.]

The total cost of a unit is made up from several factors, each based on a basic stat of the unit. These stats are:

A: Movement (how fast the unit can move modified by how it interacts with terrain and other units)
B: Armor Save (how resistant the unit is to taking damage)
C: Close Assault Factor: CAF (how good the unit is in Close Combat)
D: Ranged Weapons, if any
E: Morale (how disciplined the units are)
F: Command (whether or not the Unit requires an organized Command structure to operate normally)
G: other (any other Special Ability not already taken into account above)

Calculated costs for each of these stats are added together (or rarely, multiplied) to determine the final cost of the unit. No rounding of values takes place until the final value is determined and then only to the nearest multiple of 5.

A: Movement

Movement cost consists of three factors. Unit Type, Movement rate, and Move type. Once the values for each of these is determined, they are multipled together.

Unit Type

The Unit type cost consists of two factors: pinning and movement restrictions.

The Unit Type categories for pinning in NetEpic Gold are:

1. Infantry & Light Artillery
2. Cavalry & Walkers
3. Vehicle & Heavy Artillery (also includes most Flyers, except any that specify otherwise)
4. Super Heavy & Knights
5. Praetorians & Titans

Since each category can pin that category and any lower, the cost for each level is that level's number and the numbers of each lower level added together. Thus Pinning costs are:

Infantry & Light Artillery: 1
Cavalry & Walkers: 3 (1+2)
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: 6
Super Heavy & Knight: 10
Praetorian & Titan: 15

Movement Restrictions are arranged slightly differently. Based on the chart on page 30 of the NetEpic Gold pdf, counting each green box as +1 and each red box as -1 (yellow are 0), costs are:

Infantry & Light Artillery: 2 (3 Green, 1 Red)
Cavalry, Walker, & Knight: -1 (1 Green, 2 Red)
Vehicles & Heavy Artillery: -4 (1 Green, 5 Red)
Titans & Praetorians: 3 (7 Green, 4 Red)

I'm currently including Super Heavy and Flyers in the 'Vehicles' category. The chart on page 30 does not specify where Super Heavy should be included.

Thus, assuming we are going to restrict people to using the Types in NetEpic Gold*, the costs are as follows. [*: If someone really wants to make up a new type, it shouldn't be a problem. They would just have to specify which boxes of the chart on page 30 are which colors, determine which pinning class it occupies, and determine cost from there.]

Infantry & Light Artillery: 3 (1+2)
Cavalry & Walker: 2 (3-1)
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: 2 (6-4)
Super Heavy: 6 (10-4)
Knight: 9 (10-1)
Praetorian & Titan: 18 (15+3)

Movement rate.

This value is very simple to determine. Simply take the Move of the unit in cm and divide by 5. To put that another way, this value is 1 point per 5cm of Move.

Movement Type

The manner in which the unit interacts with the terrain it travels over is very important. Most units use wheels, tracks, legs, or some combination thereof. Any unit that uses any of those methods has a Move Type value of 1.

If the unit has the Jump Packs, Skimmer, Flyer, or Floater abilites, their value is higher.
Jump: 1.5
Skimmer: 2
Flyer: 3
Floater: 3

As examples of Movement values, let's consider a Tactical Marine squad, a Land Speeder, and a Thunderbolt.

The Tactical Marine is Infantry (3), with a Move of 10cm (2), and walks (1), thus its Move value is 3 times 2 times 1 for a total of 6.

The Land Speeder is Cavalry (2), with a Move of 30cm (6), and is a Skimmer (2). Its Move value is 2 times 6 times 2 for a total of 24.

The Thundebolt is a Vehicle (2), with a Move of 100cm (20), and is a Flyer (3). Its Move value is 2 times 20 times 3 for a total of 120!


B: Armor Save

The Armor Save value is represented by the number of higher on 1d6 that the Unit needs to roll in order to not take damage from a successful attack on it. The value of this factor is the number of points of such Save multiplied by 4 for a normal Save or by 8 for a Fixed Save. If the unit has both a normal and a Fixed save, add the values together. As examples, a Save listed as "6+" would have a value of 4; a Save listed as "4+" would be 12; a Save listed as "4+/Fixed 6+" would be 20 (12 for the normal, and 8 for the Fixed).

A unit with 'All-Around Armor' should double this value.


C: CAF

The CAF is added to the unit's roll in Close Combat, which can happen rather a lot. Take the CAF and multiply by 4 to determine this value.

CAF modifiers:

If the unit gains an extra die in Close Combat against any Unit Type(s), multiply the CAF value by 1.5 for each Unit Type category affected (see A: Unit Type above), even if only one type in that category is affected.
If the unit looses a die in CC against any unit type(s), multiply the CAF vlaue by 0.75 for each Unit Type category affected, even if only one type in that category is affected.
If the Unit has the Elite ability, multiply the CAF value by 1.5.
If the unit has Fear, multiply by 1.5.
If the unit has Terror, multiply by 2.


D: Ranged Attacks

The value for Ranged attacks has five factors per weapon system. Each Weapon System (one line in the stat block) has it's own value calculated independently from the other weapon(s). The factors are: Number of Attacks; Range; To Hit number; TSM; other modifiers.

Number of Attacks

The value for this is the base value for each Weapon System. For every attack the value is 4 points. If instead of a number, the attack uses a Barrage template, the value is 4 points per BP. If it uses another template then the value is [TBD]. If the number of BP is determined by rolling the Artillery die, then the value is 20 (2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 10 + 0, divided by 6 equals 5, times 4/BP is 20).

Range

The distance that a weapon system can hit targets within is very important. The default Range is considered to be 50cm, thus the Range (in cm) is divided by 50 to find the value for this factor. This value is multiplied by the base value (see Attacks, above). Standard Ranges and their values are:

15cm: 0.3
25cm: 0.5
35cm: 0.7
50cm: 1
75cm: 1.5
100cm: 2
150cm: 3
200cm: 4
LOS: ? (perhaps 6)

While these cover all existing, known units to date, there is nothing stopping players creating units with other Range values. Just divide your chosen Range by 50 to find its value.

To Hit Number

This is shown as the lowest number that the attacker needs to roll on 1d6 in order to hit the target, ignoring situational modifiers. This value is also a multiplier. For this purpose, a 5+ is considered baseline, thus values are:

6+ 0.5
5+ 1
4+ 1.5
3+ 2
2+ 3

A roll of 1 is always a miss.

TSM (Total Save Modifier)

This shows how powerful the attack is, adjusting the target's roll to Save by the amount listed. The weakest attack worth representing at this scale has a 0 TSM, and this is considered the baseline. This value is also a multiplier. Thus values are:

0: 1
-1: 2
-2: 3
-3: 4
-4: 5
-5: 6
etc

Other modifiers [possible values, please state opinions]

The values for these abilities are multipliers, but only affect the value of the Weapon System(s) to which they apply, unless otherwise noted.

Barrage template and the BP can be combined with other like units in the same detachment: 1.5
Ignores Cover: 1.5
Psychic: 1.5
Turret: 1.5
required to fire at same target as another Weapon System (affects both Systems): 0.5
AA: 1.5
Quickdraw: 1.5
RoF2: 2
Damages Buildings: 1.5
Destroys Buildings: 2
Fire on the Fly: 1.5
Penetrating: number plus 1 eqauls value (as with TSM)

The values for these abilites are not multipliers.

Point Defense (PDx): I'm treating Point Defense as if it were an additional Weapon System. Doing so means that it has two different costs per point of PD. This is because some Unit Types have 360 degree fire arcs and some do not, but PD always fires 360. [See Firing Arc section and chart on page 34 of the NetEpic Gold rules PDF.] Thus, for units that already have 360 fire arc, the cost is 1.35 (4 x0.3 (range) x0.5 (hit on 6+) x1.5 (always FF) x1.5 (fire during movement phase) ), whereas for units that do not the cost is 2.025 (as other plus x1.5 (360 arc) ).


Examples of Ranged Weapon System cost determination. For these examples, we will again look at the Marine Tactical squad, a Marine Land Speeder, and a Marine Thunderbolt.

The Tactical squad uses Bolters. These give 1 attack (value 4) to a Range of 50cm (value 1) with a To Hit of 5+ (value 1) and 0 TSM (value 1). Thus 4 times 1 times 1 times 1 equals 4.

The Land Speeder also has one Weapon System, which is a Multi-Melta. It has 1 attack (4) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 3+ (2) and a -2 TSM (3). Thus 4 x0.5 x2 x3 equals 12.

The Thunderbolt has two Weapon Systems. The first is Autocannon. It has 3 attacks (3x4=12) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 5+ (1) and a -1 TSM (2). Thus 12 x0.5 x1 x2 equals 12. The second is Rockets. They have a Barrage of 4 BP (4x4=16) that does not combine (1) to a Range of 25cm (0.5) with a To Hit of 5+ (1) and a -1 TSM (2). Thus 16 x1 x0.5 x1 x2 equals 16.


E: Morale

Morale is checked when a Detachment hits its Break Point and in certain other situations. Morale is expressed as the number that must be rolled on 1d6 in order to be successful. We are considering a Morale score of 6+ (one point) to be the default score [even though I don't think there are any units with this score], thus the value is 0. For every point above this, the cost is two points. Thus costs are as follows:

6+: 0
5+: 2
4+: 4
3+: 6
2+: 8
1+: 10
--: 12

[There should, in my opinion, be an adjustment to the value of a Detachment of units based on the Break Point ratio to the total number of units in that formation. The default Break Point should probably be 50% of the total, with values adjusted for every 5% or 10% of difference. This is probably not the best place to address that though.]


F: Command

This is mainly whether the Faction requires that its formations of units be within some distance of a designated Command or HQ unit to be able to receive Order Counters. Generally, if it is required then there are one or more predesignated Instinctive behaviours for those units outside of the distance. As most Factions do not require this, the default value is 0. Factions that do require this will receive some level of discount, but I'm not sure if the discount should apply at the Unit level or the Formation level. Probably the latter. However, a few Special Abilities would fall under this category. These are at least: Command, HQ, Independent, Robotic, and Stupidity.


G: other abilities

These include, but may not be limited to:

Agile
AI
Combat Leader
Combat Engineer
Daemonic
Daemon Hunter
Deep Strike
Forward Observer
Hard to Hit
Hit & Run
Infiltration
Inorganic
Inspirational
Medic
Mechanic
Multiple Wounds
Open-Top Vehicle
Psychic Save
Psyker
Regeneration
Robotic
Sniper
Static Artillery
Stealth
Teleport
Transport
Tunneler

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:29 pm 
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Hi!

Sir, I salute you!

This is awesome. This is why I enjoy our community so much! :)

I have decided I like the way you have formatted everything, as well as the mathematical consistency, which is what i desired.

The only thing left is to do the special abilities.

What is your opinion on them?

Is a flat cost preferable or is a multiplier better?

Or a mix of both?

Once you weigh in on this I will finalize the abilities list and the formula process will be complete.

At some point Mattman, will post his ideas (which we have discussed off list) on the new organization/ army lists and how they are organized.

Once more thanks, Magnus!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:46 pm 
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Thanks for the praise, but I can't help thinking that if you didn't find something you didn't like, then you didn't read the whole thing.

Oh, there is more than just the Special Abilities. While the costs being returned from the formula above are close to the current ones, they just aren't close enough for my preference. Something still needs tweaking, I just can't quite figure out what. On the other hand, it could be good to go and the discrepancies are just bad points values in the current system.

For the most part, it seemed that multipliers were better for the abilities that directly applied to an existing stat. Fixed values *might* be best for the rest, but that could go either way for some of them.

We need to determine base values for each Template that weapons can use, or a system to determine such a value. So far I have not had any inspiration on that.

Also, we've barely scratched the surface of putting point costs to Titans / Praetorians. The weapons should be easy, but how do we put a points cost to the number of hit locations, their save values, or the results of hitting them?

OH! I forgot the final examples. I had partial examples in the above post for three units. There should probably be examples at the end showing the entire system at work. Perhaps something like...

_________________________________

Let's complete the calculations for the three units above.

The Tactical Marine has a Move value of 6; has a Save of 5+, value is 8; CAF of 2, value 8; Weapon System value of 4; Morale value of 8; no Special Abilities for a total cost of 34 which rounds to 35.

The Land Speeder has a Move value of 24; Save of 5+, value 8; CAF of 3, value 12; Weapon System value 12; Morale value 8; for a total cost of 64, rounds to 65.

The Thunderbolt has a Move value of 120; Save of 4+, value 12; CAF of 4, value 16; Weapon System values of 12 & 16; Morale value 8; for a total of 184, rounds to 185.
_______________________

Note that the Final value for the Tactical Marine is spot on, but the Land Speeder is a bit higher (64 up from 40), and the Thunderbolt is more than twice it's old value (184 vs 85). I'm having similar issues with other units, some even worse than those.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:35 pm 
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Tell ya what, I'm going to post what all of the current, calculated values are far all common-use Marine units. This may help you decide what you think the values for outstanding Special Abilities should be.

Format is:
Unit: Calculated value (old value); any undetermined Special Abilities

Apothecary: 36 (50); HQ, Medic
Assault HQ: 61.5 (0); Command, HQ, Inspirational
Assault: 43.5 (35)
Chaplain: 62 (75); Combat Leader, Command, HQ
Chapter Master: 90 (100); Command, HQ, Inspirational, Special
Devastator: 50 (50)
Flamer: 36 (35)
Forward Observer: 36 (50); HQ, Stealth, Special
Grey Knight: 95.2 (100); Daemon Hunter, Psychic Save 4+, Special
Inquisitor: 103 (100); Command, Fearless, HQ, Psychic Save 4+, Special
Legion ot Damned: 78 (50); Fearless, Teleport
Librarian: 44 (100); HQ, Psyker
Marine HQ: 54 (0); Command, HQ, Inspirational
OM Inquisitor: 87 (150); Command, HQ, Psychic Save 4=, Special
Scout: 22 (25); Infiltration
Tactical: 34 (35)
Techmarine: 36 (100); HQ, Mechanic
Terminator CA: 84 (45)
Terminator HQ: 96.8 (0); Command, HQ, Inspirational
Terminator: 89 (45)
Veteran: 56 (42.5)
Veteran HQ: 64 (na); Command, HQ, Inspirational
Attack Bike: 44 (35)
LS Tornado: 60 (40)
LS Typhoon: 58 (40)
Land Speeder: 64 (40)
Marine Bike: 37 (30)
Contemptor (old): 51.35 (50)
Deredeo: 53.35 (50)
Furibundus: 53.35 (50)
Punisher / Contemptor Mk2: 69.35 (50)
Venerable: 73.65 (?); Inspirational
Robot: 54 (25); Inorganic, Robotic
Scatolo Combat 49.35* (25); *no value for Flamer weapon as it uses a Template
Scatolo Assault: 61.35 (37.5)
Scatolo Heavy Support: 57.35 (37.5)
Hunter AA: 66 (50)
Land Raider: 86 (85); Transport 2
LR Crusader: 78.1 (100); Transport 2
LR Helios: 122 (140)
Predator: 76 (65)
Razorback: 50 (65); Transport 1
Rhino: 32 (15); Transport 2
Sabre: 48 (35)
Vindicator: 72 (50)
Mole Mortar: 26 (35) [already took care of its Special with a *1.5 to its weapon value]
Rapier: 26 (25)
Tarantula: 57 (30); Inorganic, Robotic
Thudd Gun: 35 (35) [took care of its Special as per MM]
Whirlwind: 64 (50)
Thunderbolt: 184 (85)
Marauder: 212 (115)
Thunderhawk: 276 (100); Transport 6
Dropship: 288 (300); Deep Strike, Void Shields 2, Transport 18/6
Warhound: 134 (125); Void Shields 2, Agile, Hard to Hit on Charge, two Hardpoints
Reaver: 132 (300); Void Shields 4, three Hardpoints
Warlord: 122 (500); Void Shields 6, four Hardpoints

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:53 am 
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Looking good. Obviously titans might need their own system for points.
Interesting to see some of the calcs. I always thought preds were undercosted and a 3 fold increase on a thunderhawk.
Platinum is likely to throw out some tweaks and changes to stats and special abilities, but having a system like this in place will make it easier to incorporate any changes.


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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:08 pm 
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Found an error in the units I posted earlier. Forgot to adjust the Mole Mortar's weapon as I noted, also added an additional *1.5 for the subterranean/trapping aspect.

I've just gone through the Imperial Titan weapons, and I've decided that the cost per BP should be 2 instead of 4 per. This adjusts the cost of a few Marine units as well.

LS Typhoon: 55 (40)
Deredeo: 44.35 (50)
Scatolo Heavy Support: 53.35 (37.5)
LR Helios: 104 (140)
Mole Mortar: 19.25 (35)
Thudd Gun: 17 (35)
Whirlwind: 46 (50)
Thunderbolt: 176 (85)
Marauder: 188 (115)
Thunderhawk: 222 (100)

For the Imperial Titan weapons, I made a couple of quick & dirty guesstimates as to values for a couple of SA.

One-Shot weapon: *0.1
1d6 more Barrages: *3
Always FF: *1.5
+1d6 to CAF: +(3.5*4)
Penetrating 1: *1.5
Penetrating 2: *2
Penetrating 3: *2.5
etc
Recharge: *0.5
not fire other weapons: *0.5
Not fire other or move: *0.25
Grab: *1.5
Knockdown: *1.5
no indirect: *0.5
Vortex: *4
restricted to 30 deg arc: *0.33
move/2: *0.5 (also reduces the value of the Titan's Movement value)

Barrage Missile Launcher: 173
Carapace Multi-Lasers: 3.6
Cerberus AA Gun: 64
Chain Fist: 15
Doomburner: 72
Harpoon Missile: 72
Hellstrike Cannon: 50
Gatling Blaster: 48
Laser Blaster: 24
Laser Burner: 5.6
Melta-Cannon: 64
Multiple Rocket Launcher: 72 & 16, for it's two modes. Not sure if these should be added, averaged, or somewhere in between.
Plasma Blastgun: 40
Plasma Cannon: 108
Plasma Destructor: 112 (or 448 without the restriction on moving/firing other weapons)
Power Fist: 0.9
Power Ram: 0.9
Quake Cannon: 192
Trident: 6
Turbo Laser Destructor: 72
Volcano Cannon: 200
Vortex Missile: 58
Warp Missile: 11
Custodian Head: 27
Deathstrike Cannon: 119
Weapon Head: 4

The others are going to be more tricky to come up with values for. The ones with Terminator squads will probably just cost the same as those squads. The Fire Control Center should adjust the "to hit" values of all of the Titan's other weapons, thus it's cost would be variable.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:03 pm 
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I have to say that I find the costings for the Terminators to be a bit of a concern but in general this is looking very, very good!

I wouldn't worry about things not matching up with GW costings though since it all seemed to be done in the hoof...

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:24 am 
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Hi!

I'm struggling to find the time to really pick everything apart. :(

I'm shooting for this weekend to add in the special abilities as well as posting my thoughts on how to do the titans.

Thanks!

Primarch

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Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:39 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I have to say that I find the costings for the Terminators to be a bit of a concern but in general this is looking very, very good!


Yeah, there are a few units like that. If you have any ideas as to what should be changed / adjusted, please post them.

The Bissler wrote:
I wouldn't worry about things not matching up with GW costings though since it all seemed to be done in the hoof...


Good point that. Still, it's amazing how many units are matching up.

What we really need is for someone to do a battle or two, even if using existing formation structure, but with these points costs. That's really the only way we'd know if they are reasonably balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:52 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I'm struggling to find the time to really pick everything apart. :(

I'm shooting for this weekend to add in the special abilities as well as posting my thoughts on how to do the titans.

Thanks!

Primarch


Gotcha, sorry if I seem to be in a rush. I'll try and curb how quickly I'm posting things... Applying what we have so far to the other Factions should take a few days anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: The Great Points Formula Debate!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:04 am 
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Just had another thought. (Yes, I know I'd slow down, but this needs to be addressed.)

Does Morale really belong at the unit/model level? Yes, the Morale score affects how well they fight, but as far as I'm aware, Morale is only ever checked at the Detachment level, not for individual models. Much like Break Point, Morale should probably influence the final cost of a formation / detachment of units / models, but probably shouldn't directly affect the cost of the models themselves.

If you have a strong reason / argument why you think it should affect a model's cost directly, please state it.

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