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Airpower Uber Alles
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9777		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:23 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
Played another Tau 5.2 tweak and tune battle last night and JW went for some extreme gaming with an obscene amount of airpower. ?(didn't bother with a batrep after the last underwhelming response). Version 1 of his army was soo bad I just conceded him the win as I was playing Chaos and basically only had some Doom Wings with any chance of hurting his Barricudas, Orcas and Tigersharks, and probably fodder to his Skyrays anyway. ?He toned things down by taking out the TS and Skyrays and a detachment of Barras leaving it just moderately awfull (2 dets of Baras, 2 Orcas, plus a Manta) rather than obscene. ?Some observations:

- Not sure why Flyers get a 360 arc.
- Movement restrictions really aren't.
- They are largely untargettable and therefore immune to a large part of your opponents army. ?In last nights case, 2 stands of Firewarriors got a shot at my Doom Wings, and not one of my ground troops ever got a shot at the Tau flyers.
- All army lists need to be upgraded so they have some form of AA unit. ?Chaos suggestions were for Zulus for the "renegade" list and Hunters for the CSMs. ?Inclusion of the Hell Blades in the renegade list would be good too. ?Then I wont need to take Tzeentch allies each time. ?
- Discussed whether flyers should be able to shoot flyers (they can't currently). ?Last night cemented my position in the NO camp. ?By the end of turn 3 my Doom Wings had killed 3/4 Barracudas and 1/2 Orcas, and one of them was shot down by a Firewarrior. ?If flyers could shoot flyers they would have been toasted by the Uber Barras on turn one and I would have been defenseless.
- Tau aircraft just have too many weapons with too long a range.
- Orca - drop the Seeker Missile, give it Deep Strike and leave the points as is.
- I really think there needs to be some form of restriction on Airpower.  Without it I can foresee a rock/paper/scissor arms race as armies beef up their airpower, so the opponent packs more AA, then when people start taking 10 Firestorms or 12 Thunderfires opponents dont bring any aircraft, and then when the opponent stops taking AA then packing in 4 Overlord Companies or 5 detachments of Nightwings, and so on and so on.  

Options.  Could be a percentage of points based max on Flyers/Titans/Praetorians like E:A.  Sort of stuffs up AMTL though, and still open to a fair bit of abuse I'd think.  You have to make the percentage reasonably high so you can fit in a Titan (at least 25%), which buys a lot of flyers if you dont take a Titan.

Option 2 - No limit on Transports, but all transport flyers have a maximum of 50cm range on any weapons (I think only the Orca and Tigershark drone carrier breaks this ATM...could argue the later is a special case).  Limit of 10% of build, or six aircraft per 5000 points (whichever is lower) for any non-transport aircraft.  Number of transport aircraft does count against this limit to the total number of aircraft.

EG.  a 5000 point marine army could take 10 Thunderhawks (no limit to transports).  However, if it wanted to include a detachment of Thunderbolts, then it could only take 3 T-Hawks (maximum of 6 aircraft).  It could take 2 detachments of T-Bolts and no Thunderchickens (6 aircraft and 10% of build), but it could not take Marauders and T-Bolts as they would exceed the 10% of build.  It could take Marauders and 3 Thunderhawks.

-On the Manta (largely for JW's benefit). ?I don't think taking away the fire of the main batteries when it lands is all that clever after some reflection. ?It just means you'd never take a Manta Cadre and just take the special. ?However, on the firepower/cost comparison discussion, another major point in the Mantas favour is its' Preatorian status.....a Phantom needs to be on advance to get its' 3+ fixed save while the Manta is always on First Fire. ?Another major point in the Mantas favour is it never really needs to worry about being engaged in close combat....particularly by 'Nid Biotitans ?:angry: ?
I actually think a better comparison for the Manta might be the Slann Razorfang....and its' 1000 points  :p
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
Noted that 10% cap would make the Squat Air Attack Corps only useable in 7000 point games.  Also really messes up Tzeentch...never ever see Skylok and almost certainly never a Warp Palace.   The later is certainly cwappy enough to be given an exemption though :)

Dreadclaw also breaks the 50cm rule.

Maybe we should just revert to the SM2/TL rules and let everything shoot at flyers with a -1 penalty, and -25cm for high altitude.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:53 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
We use 33% of total battle force for CAS, Off-board, and Titans.  We do No CAP and only Flak units can shoot at aircraft ...  Works for us ... :)
Author:  Juffo-Wup [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:53 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
- Not sure why Flyers get a 360 arc.
Agreed.  I can't see fighter aircraft having a 360 arc.  Some Bombers (like the Maurader) sure but fighters like the Barracuda and Thunderbolt, it doesn't make sense.
- Movement restrictions really aren't.
Agreed.  Flyers really aren't restricted.  Perhaps they should only be able to make the one turn at the start.  Coupled with the 180 arc for fighters and the like and it would certainly restrict the power of aircraft.
- All army lists need to be upgraded so they have some form of AA unit.  Chaos suggestions were for Zulus for the "renegade" list and Hunters for the CSMs.  Inclusion of the Hell Blades in the renegade list would be good too.  Then I wont need to take Tzeentch allies each time.
Definitely.  All armied need to have some semi-respectable AA units.  For Orks you only have the DoomDiver and Flakwagons, both of which are Mekboy cards.  At the very least the Flakwagons should lose the Mekboy restriction, allowing you to take many more of them.
- Discussed whether flyers should be able to shoot flyers (they can't currently).  Last night cemented my position in the NO camp.  By the end of turn 3 my Doom Wings had killed 3/4 Barracudas and 1/2 Orcas, and one of them was shot down by a Firewarrior.  If flyers could shoot flyers they would have been toasted by the Uber Barras on turn one and I would have been defenseless.
On the flipside of this, those Doom Wings took out nearly 3 times their points cost in my flyers.  For 250pts they took out 650pts worth of my units.  I simply could not answer their dogfighting ability at all.  I definitely need those Skyrays I dropped.
- Tau aircraft just have too many weapons with too long a range.
I think the Barracudas could stand to see their Ion Cannons drop to 50cm range and up their CAF a little bit (perhaps to +3 or +4).  As they stand they are pretty sucky as fighter aircraft and much better as a ground attack unit, a role that should be reserved for the Tigershark units.
- Orca - drop the Seeker Missile, give it Deep Strike and leave the points as is.
My solution is to drop the Seeker Missile, drop the range of all its weapons to 35cm, up the speed to 60cm and give it Deep Strike.  This way it really does become a dropship and not the attack unit I was using it as.
- I really think there needs to be some form of restriction on Airpower.  Without it I can foresee a rock/paper/scissor arms race as armies beef up their airpower, so the opponent packs more AA, then when people start taking 10 Firestorms or 12 Thunderfires opponents dont bring any aircraft, and then when the opponent stops taking AA then packing in 4 Overlord Companies or 5 detachments of Nightwings, and so on and so on.
Yep.  As demonstrated by me last night too much airpower is stupid, especially when playing the Tau.
-On the Manta (largely for JW's benefit).  I don't think taking away the fire of the main batteries when it lands is all that clever after some reflection.  It just means you'd never take a Manta Cadre and just take the special.  However, on the firepower/cost comparison discussion, another major point in the Mantas favour is its' Preatorian status.....a Phantom needs to be on advance to get its' 3+ fixed save while the Manta is always on First Fire.  Another major point in the Mantas favour is it never really needs to worry about being engaged in close combat....particularly by 'Nid Biotitans    
I actually think a better comparison for the Manta might be the Slann Razorfang....and its' 1000 points  
Good points.  I'll take the Manta up to 800pts and see how it fares there.  The trick with the Manta is that it can soak up a stupid amount of fire like it did last night or it can be downed with a single shot, so its hard to get the points right.  I think 800 is a good place to put it.
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
I did think of the "1 turn at start only" restriction and with only 180 arc it would make a bit of a difference.  However, "1 turn at end of movement only" would really mix things up.....but makes dogfighting pretty close to impossible....sigh.

Good point on the Flakwagons....can't see why they're a Mekboy unit at all.  Orks don't fair that well in the AA/Air Sup stakes at all.

Doom Wings definitely got the MVP award.  It was only because I was able to move them last each time that saved them though.  I pretty much expected them to be nullified at the end of turn one.  

I think the idea for the Barracudas is a good one.  Having the Mega-Tigershark with lots of big range weapons is ok, but the Barras too is perhaps a little much.  The Orca plan sounds good too though it probably needs to have a better save and you'd need to drop the points.  I think a 4+ (or maybe 3+), and 150 points?  BTW, I think the Tigershark Drone Carrier is looking like a bit of a bargain compared to the AX-1-0 version.

The killer with the Manta is the firepower....it ripped up a 600 point titan in nothing flat, smashed Magnus even with 4 Reward cards still in my hand, while soaking the firepower of the Reaver, both Subjagators, Magnus and the Demon Prince for pretty much the whole game....1450 points worth of units.  Good value!  I do think 800 should be pretty close....slightly higher than a top of the line Phantom and equal to a Plasma Destructor/FCC Warlord.
Author:  Juffo-Wup [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
I did think of the "1 turn at start only" restriction and with only 180 arc it would make a bit of a difference.  However, "1 turn at end of movement only" would really mix things up.....but makes dogfighting pretty close to impossible....sigh.
I think restricting flyers (not floaters) to 180 degree arcs and then having the one turn at the start of the movement is the best solution.  It restricts their maneuverability (which was the point of the straight-line movement) and forces you to make tactical choices on lining them up for a particular target.

Good point on the Flakwagons....can't see why they're a Mekboy unit at all.  Orks don't fair that well in the AA/Air Sup stakes at all.
Forgeworld will be releasing a new Ork AA Flakgun soon, field artillery flak for Orks.  Should be good to see and could give them more of an option in the flak stakes.

Doom Wings definitely got the MVP award.  It was only because I was able to move them last each time that saved them though.  I pretty much expected them to be nullified at the end of turn one.
Not with the way I roll for CC!  :p    

I think the idea for the Barracudas is a good one.  Having the Mega-Tigershark with lots of big range weapons is ok, but the Barras too is perhaps a little much.  The Orca plan sounds good too though it probably needs to have a better save and you'd need to drop the points.  I think a 4+ (or maybe 3+), and 150 points?  BTW, I think the Tigershark Drone Carrier is looking like a bit of a bargain compared to the AX-1-0 version.
Yep.  Agree on all points.  I'd like to try the TS Drone Carrier first before making a firm decision on points but I think it is a little cheap.

Manta....smashed Magnus even with 4 Reward cards still in my hand
That was some scary rolling I made on Magnus, plus the Reaver had been softened up by the Barracudas (one of the reasons I think they need to be turned into fighters and not ground attack craft).

while soaking the firepower of the Reaver, both Subjagators, Magnus and the Demon Prince for pretty much the whole game....1450 points worth of units.  Good value!  I do think 800 should be pretty close....slightly higher than a top of the line Phantom and equal to a Plasma Destructor/FCC Warlord.
Yep.  Mind you they didn't have anything else that was big to shoot at and I made a stupid number of 3+ saves for the Deflectors.  So yes, I think that 800pts is probably the right place for them.
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
So, Flyers get 180 front arc, 1 turn at beginning of move and then must move between 50-100% of their movement.

I think this along with the specific unit changes will detune the Tau air armada somewhat.  Still plenty of potential for ugly airpower lists, but if you're plinking down 300 points per model it shouldn't be so bad.  I'd guess Eldar were the next closest for rank abuse but their stuff doesn't poses anywhere near the raw firepower of the 5.1 Tau aircraft unless they get real close and then infantry have a chance of shooting them.  Squat Overlords are also marginal, but it's a floater, and in any case it's hard to touch the Squats because they have lots of limitations in the NetEpic world already.    

New Flak for the Orks would be good....I think I over-rated what they have so far when I said it was poor :)

For the standard Tigershark it has only fractionally less firepower than the AX-1-0 for half the price.  I think it is directly comparable to the Eldar Phoenix at 300, and certainly better than a 300 point Firelord, and that's without considering the Drones.  The Drones could certainly be a freebie though as I doubt they'll be game breakers with their new rules.
Author:  Juffo-Wup [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:10 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles

(zap123 @ Jun. 26 2007,05:33)
QUOTE
So, Flyers get 180 front arc, 1 turn at beginning of move and then must move between 50-100% of their movement.

I think that this suggestion should go to a poll for full NetEpic community.  Its a Core Rules change and needs to be voted on IMO.  I like the change but it should still be voted on.
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:18 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
Da.  You wanna put it up?

I noted that Ork Fighta-Bombas are Mekboy units, but not Bombas.....odd.  Be better if neither of them were, but I'm guessing they probably both should be.
Author:  primarch [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
Hi!

Fliers and thier rules have run the full gamut through the versions, from complex to simple. Since they were merely tacked on in the original GW rules, they have always been "awkward".

Any of the solutions are fine. I am particularly partial to the rules of letting anything firing at them with a -1 and 25cm range penalty. Its simple and places AA at an advantage since these penalties dont apply to them.

Would that be enough to address all issues?

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
I am kinda leaning that way, though AA did (and IMO should) still suffer the -25cm range targetting flyers at High Altitude.  To me it's the simplest solution and means that Flyers interact with all ground based units, and means you don't absolutely have to pack lots of AA or Fighters.  The other upside is we then don't have to retrofit all the lists to make sure they have some form of air defense.
Author:  Juffo-Wup [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
I'd recommend letting anything on First Fire be able to Snap Fire at Flyers with all the requisite penalties (plus the range penalty if they are at High Altitude), but no other firing at them.  AA Units would ignore the penalties plus can target them without needing to Snap Fire, giving them a big advantage over normal units for shooting at Flyers.

This eliminates the need for big changes to the rules or adding any new ones.
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles

(Juffo-Wup @ Jun. 28 2007,06:04)
QUOTE
I'd recommend letting anything on First Fire be able to Snap Fire at Flyers with all the requisite penalties (plus the range penalty if they are at High Altitude), but no other firing at them.  AA Units would ignore the penalties plus can target them without needing to Snap Fire, giving them a big advantage over normal units for shooting at Flyers.

This eliminates the need for big changes to the rules or adding any new ones.

I was just about to suggest the same as Juffo-Wup. If everybody is just allowed to fire at 'em freely we're back at the situation we had a few years ago when it was not worth fielding any aircraft.
Author:  scream [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles
I think that it would be a good deal to allow infantery to fire at the flyers but not vehicules (except those that have AA ability). I could not imagine a shadowsword aiming a thunderbolt or any other flyer.

So Infantery could shot flyers with a -1 to hit (as a snap fire) and they still suffer the -25cm range to shot them at high altitude.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Airpower Uber Alles

(Mojarn Piett @ Jun. 28 2007,01:46)
QUOTE

(Juffo-Wup @ Jun. 28 2007,06:04)
QUOTE
I'd recommend letting anything on First Fire be able to Snap Fire at Flyers with all the requisite penalties (plus the range penalty if they are at High Altitude), but no other firing at them. ?AA Units would ignore the penalties plus can target them without needing to Snap Fire, giving them a big advantage over normal units for shooting at Flyers.

This eliminates the need for big changes to the rules or adding any new ones.

I was just about to suggest the same as Juffo-Wup. If everybody is just allowed to fire at 'em freely we're back at the situation we had a few years ago when it was not worth fielding any aircraft.

I agree.
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