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Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Brother-Captain Parzval

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 7:14 pm

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Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 10:22 pm
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Location: Sweden

I just wanted to ask everyone for their opinions on this. When Im building a space marine army of say 4000 pts, I would use a couple of infantry companies as the core of the army of course. Now the "standard" marine company is the tactical company. However, I never seem to buy this one as I, for just 100 points, get the veteran company which has morale 1 (TC has 2), +4 CAF (TC has +2), but is otherwise identical. Even worse is when I opt for close assault troops. The standard marine assault troops have a CAF of +3, and jumppacks, and cost the same as for tac. marines. So why bother with these i you can get the vets (with higher CAF, AND weapons with twice the range, plus better morale) for just 100 extra points? The veterans dont have jumppacks, but I never seem to need them anyway. The Terminators are the other choice for closecombat troops, but they are expensive and fewer. So whats wrong here? Maybe the veterans need to have their CAF lowered to +3, or maybe they should be made a bit more pricey?

Tell me what you think about this...

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primarch

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 12:15 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

While it looks like a good deal on paper, in battle their differences dont account for all that much. Their firepower is equal to that of regular marines and this has more impact than close combat factor. For you to exploit their advantage you need to get them into close combat, which is no easier than regular tactical marines. So the same difficulties and dangers of executing it properly apply to veterans as tacs.
Morale, as in most GW games doesn't impact all that much so the morale difference isn't that great either. Its a very minor edge.

So it all comes down to their CAF bonus, while it IS good remember that close combat in epic is very attritional by nature and while they may accomplish their objectives it means most of the time they also break, giving the opponent more VP's than the standard tac company.

I used to think they were better too, but their break point is the same as tacs and in the end it means a more expensive unit that yields more VP's in close combat. It has been argued that veterans "aren't worth" the points since their tactical use is very limited and their break point is equal to other companies. As a matter of fact they are better suited to defense than attack. If their break point were higher then I think they'd really be unbalanced, but since it is not it is as frail as the regular tac company.

After all these years having been both on the recieving end and attacking with veterans I really can"t really say veterans are too good. I think they are "just right".

Primarch

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Legion 4

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:11 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA

Space Marine infantry types, like all armies' infantry, have specific characteristics and should be used based on the mission and in many cases even the terrain, where the battle is to be fought. ?Terminators are great, but Tactical and Assault units can do some things the Terminators can't and vis-a-versa. ?Of course it also depends on the rule system you use. ?For example in SM1 (and the hybrid system we use), Terminators can Teleport and have a heavy weapons shot (Cyclone Missle Launchers) + a high close assault factor. ?They are very good, but very expensive. ?Assault Marines are fast with their jump packs, but only have short range and close combat weapons. ?Tactical and Devastators have their specialties too. ?If you think your opponent is going to field a lot of AFVs, you better have some Devastators in your force. ?Force selection should be based on mission requirements or on how you choose to fight your battles ... ?

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netepic

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:49 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm
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Location: Southfields, London, England

If you see the battle rep at http://www.netepic.org/EZINE/html/chaosvsmarine.htm a reaver titan took out an entire veteran detachment and a thunderhawk in one turn.

So whilst they are good, they are not unbalanced in my opinion.

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primarch

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:47 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

I think we can summarize this thread by saying:

"Point values are a useful tool, but not perfect". I think in most games we play there are many examples of units that seem to cost too much or too low, but in actual games aren't that bad or that good.

Primarch

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netepic

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 10:24 am

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm
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Location: Southfields, London, England

Agreed it is why I am so vehemently against points value formulas for games like V40k or NetEPIC, they are a useful guideline but nothing beats playtesting.

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primarch

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 1:09 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

All too true, but that invlolves some work and unfortunately too many gamers prefer the easy route (i.e lazy) to have one made for them regardless of how unbalanced it may be. Then again maybe the lazy ones are the game companies.... }:)

Primarch

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netepic

Post subject: Space Marine Veteran Companies too strong?

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2003 2:05 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:26 pm
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Location: Southfields, London, England

True, but the Epic:A playtesting has been a step in the right direction I guess... if only they did this with 40k we might be able to make a half decent game out of it.

As it is, I will just have to play VOID and 40k 2nd Ed.

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