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Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
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Author:  scream [ Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
Hi,

few more question during Volcano In Paris that is not stated anywhere in rulebook/codex.

Q1: When a titan is equipped with a Close Combat Weapon that can destroy buildings, when is this attack resolved ?

When question was asked, I replied that this attack is resolved during Close Combat segment as I've considered it's a kind of Close Combat.

Weapon description usually just says:
Quote:
"Additionally, titans in base-to-base contact with a building may elect, in addition to other attacks, to make an automatic hit on the adjacent building. The building must make a save at –(insert_value_here) TSM or be destroyed. "

in the case of Eldar Power Fist, description says:
Quote:
"Titans in base-to-base contact with buildings may elect, in addition to normal attacks, to hit the building once. The building must make a save at -4 TSM or be destroyed."


I'm pretty sure that it's not done during titan movement but the "in addition to other/normal attacks" may mean that it could be resolved during "First Fire segment" if titan is on First Fire or during "Advance Fire segment" if titan is on Advance.

Q2: If this attack is not considered as a Close Combat attack, does the Eldar Power Fist (or any titan weapon that can be used to shoot or for close combat) could perform both a ranged attack and a free building attack ?

Q3: When a titan is equipped with 2 close combat weapons and each has the ability "Destroy Buildings", does the titan get 2 attacks Vs 1 building (resolved separately) or should we consider it only uses 1 weapon so 1 attack ?


Q4: When titan is in base contact with 2 (or more) buildings (rare case), does it get 1 attack against each building or can it only attack a number of building equal to the number of equipped weapons that can destroy buildings

Q5: Are those free destroy buildings attacks limited by the weapon fire arc (ie: 180° side for an arm gargant weapon, 180° front for an imperial titan) ?

Thanks in advance for your replies
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
1: It would be reasonable to resolve the free attack as a Close Combat phase thing, as it is coming from a CC based weapon and does require base contact. However, that said, it is still not technically a CC attack and thus a player cannot count a building as adding a die for multiple attackers.

2: Yes. The key phrase there is "in addition to". Thus whether it makes a ranged attack or makes a CC attack does not matter, as it can also attack an adjacent building if it wants to. Note that it is not actually a CC attack though.

3&4: As far as I can tell from the quoted bits, a Titan may make one free attack against each building that it is adjacent to for each CC weapon it has. It should be reasonable to allow such a Titan to make two attacks against each building, as the player is sacrificing two weapon slots that could otherwise be used for Quake Cannons that could do the same job at long range.

5: Probably should be.
Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
I fully agree with Magnus' response on this.
Author:  primarch [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
Hi!

The original intent was those additional attacks are resolved according to the titans orders (first fire advance, charge). So if it were on first fire orders and adjacent to a structure it could fire and make that attack versus the building in the first fire phase since those were the orders.

I also agree (and have seen used in play) with Magnus that it is one additional attack per CC weapon. So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.

I've seen this in action. Imagine it in a "city scenario" Its quite entertaining. ;)

Primarch
Author:  scream [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
Thanks for your replies mates :)

So here is the Q/A:

Q1: When a titan is equipped with a Close Combat Weapon that can destroy buildings, when is this attack resolved ?
A1: depend on Titan Order
- during first fire segment if titan has a First Fire order
- during close combat segment if titan has a Charge order
- during advance segment if titan has an Advance order

Q2: If this attack is not considered as a Close Combat attack, does the Eldar Power Fist (or any titan weapon that can be used to shoot or for close combat) could perform both a ranged attack and a free building attack ?
A2: this attack is not a close combat attack and Eldar Power Fist (or other equivalent weapons for others faction titans) can be used to shoot (if titan is on First Fire or Advance) and perform the free building attack

Q3: When a titan is equipped with 2 close combat weapons and each has the ability "Destroy Buildings", does the titan get 2 attacks Vs 1 building (resolved separately) or should we consider it only uses 1 weapon so 1 attack ?
A3: Titan can attack twice this building and building must save 2 times or be destroyed

Q4: When titan is in base contact with 2 (or more) buildings (rare case), does it get 1 attack against each building or can it only attack a number of building equal to the number of equipped weapons that can destroy buildings
A4: Titans can attack a number of buildings equal to the number of weapons with free building attack ability. So a titan in base contact with 2 buildings equipped with 2 weapon can perform 2 attacks Vs 1 building or 1 attack against each building

Q5: Are those free destroy buildings attacks limited by the weapon fire arc (ie: 180° side for an arm gargant weapon, 180° front for an imperial titan) ?
A5: Yes
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
primarch wrote:
...
I also agree (and have seen used in play) with Magnus that it is one additional attack per CC weapon. So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.
...


Here you say that you agree with what I said, but then state something other than what I said. Fascinating. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I tried to say was that a Titan that has two CC weapons that affect Buildings should be allowed to get a free attack for each such weapon on every building that it is in contact with. In other words, a Titan in contact with two buildings would get two attacks on both buildings, provided that both buildings are within the "fire arc" of both weapons.
Author:  scream [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
...
I also agree (and have seen used in play) with Magnus that it is one additional attack per CC weapon. So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.
...


Here you say that you agree with what I said, but then state something other than what I said. Fascinating. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I tried to say was that a Titan that has two CC weapons that affect Buildings should be allowed to get a free attack for each such weapon on every building that it is in contact with. In other words, a Titan in contact with two buildings would get two attacks on both buildings, provided that both buildings are within the "fire arc" of both weapons.


On my side, I prefer what Primarch said:

Quote:
So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.


Else, an eldar titan with 2 power fists would become a terrible building destroyer (in addition to the nice shooting attacks...)
Author:  primarch [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
...
I also agree (and have seen used in play) with Magnus that it is one additional attack per CC weapon. So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.
...


Here you say that you agree with what I said, but then state something other than what I said. Fascinating. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I tried to say was that a Titan that has two CC weapons that affect Buildings should be allowed to get a free attack for each such weapon on every building that it is in contact with. In other words, a Titan in contact with two buildings would get two attacks on both buildings, provided that both buildings are within the "fire arc" of both weapons.


Hi!

Ah, I misunderstood. Not a first. ;)

I find your way quite interesting, as well as powerful. Given how uncommon a happenstance it is, I would not mind doing it this way.

In fact consider the idea "pinched" for my own private use. :)

Primarch
Author:  primarch [ Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Free Titan Close Combat Attack Vs Building
scream wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
...
I also agree (and have seen used in play) with Magnus that it is one additional attack per CC weapon. So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.
...


Here you say that you agree with what I said, but then state something other than what I said. Fascinating. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I tried to say was that a Titan that has two CC weapons that affect Buildings should be allowed to get a free attack for each such weapon on every building that it is in contact with. In other words, a Titan in contact with two buildings would get two attacks on both buildings, provided that both buildings are within the "fire arc" of both weapons.


On my side, I prefer what Primarch said:

Quote:
So if it had two, it could either strike one structure twice or two different ones.


Else, an eldar titan with 2 power fists would become a terrible building destroyer (in addition to the nice shooting attacks...)


Hi!

It would work that way yes.

Although Magnus' proposition is pretty cool and I would not mind using it that way.

However I do see how it would be "unbalanced" in certain scenarios where structures are too plentiful and too close together.

It would make a nifty berserk chaos titan ability though. ;D

Primarch
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