Hi,

I have a question about the fire on the fly ability. Core rules say that a unit that uses fire on the fly ability can not use another ability. Is it include Elite ans jump-pack or not ?

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Elite only gives a reroll on a Close Combat, so would have no effect on a model using Fire on the Fly as FotF happens during Movement.

Jump is a good question though. To the best of my ability to find, there are no current models with both Jump and FotF. Still, it would be a good idea to address this just in case someone builds one.

Based on the specific wording in the Core Rules, I would say "probably not", as it specifies that such a model could not make a Pop-Up attack and thus movement based abilities would be out. Actually, aside from Command models, restricting Pop-Ups from a Fire on the Fly attack is irrelevant as a Pop-Up can only happen when on First-Fire orders and Fire on the Fly can only be used when on Advance orders.

I'd say that any Special Ability that has to be 'activated' (IE, one that does not have a permanent, persistent effect) would be prohibited. For example, while a Skimmer would not be able to make a Pop-Up during it's move, it would still count as a Skimmer for interacting with terrain and other models. In my mind, Jump is an ability that has at least a minimal amount of activation as the model does not have to use it, though it generally does.

In other words, personally I'd say that Jump would be prohibited while using Fire on the Fly. Still, if your opponent is fine with you using it the other way, go right ahead.

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Hi!

This is badly worded. It is intended for other similar abilities not to "stack" with it.

It would not apply to Elite or jump packs though.

I'm not really sure why that sentence is even there.

Unless someone can show some other ability in combination with this one that would make it severely unbalanced it need to be removed, or at least reworded to say cannot be combined with "insert ability here".

Primarch

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Hi!

After reading Magnus' response, I think the current sentence wording is inadequate and it should be reworded to state specifically which "cannot be used".

Is there some advantage to be gained from fire on the fly and jump packs together?

Any other abilities that if stacked with this one is "too much"?

I'd start there. Sounds like that sentence was put in there as a stop gap measure without any real thought if other abilities were all that overpowered if combined with it.

Primarch

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Well, a model with Jump could use that to Jump over the model - or the terrain it is in - and thus be able to shoot a target as it passes overhead whereas if it did not Jump it could not get to a point with LOS to be able to fire.

I think that one of the Eldar Titan abilities (either Crew or Upgrade, not sure) gives Fire on the Fly. Consider a Revenant Titan with that ability. It would be like the "Death from Above" ability from MechWarrior. Hmm, perhaps that's not a bad thing after all.

Taking a quick look through the lists, any or all of the following might be unusable with Fire on the Fly:
AA
Combat Engineer
Forward Observer
Guided
Hit & Run
Holy Rage
Markerlights
Medic
Mechanic
Psychic Lance
Quickdraw
RoF
Sniper

Along with any and all abilities that cannot be used during the Movement phase (Pop-Up for example).

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Would any of these be considered "unfair" if permitted to stack with this ability?

The revenant with that ability through a titan skill doesn't worry me because not everyone uses them and it is after all an "earned" ability. Plus it would be pretty cool.

I'm not particular against jump being used in conjuction with it as per your example. It an advantage, but only very few units would possess it.

In a nutshell, I'd only exclude abilities that are grossly unbalanced if combined with this. If there aren't any then perhaps the sentence should be removed.

Primarch

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What is and is not considered to be fair varies from person to person and by situation. For example, a person doing a thing is more likely to consider it to be fair than a person on the receiving end of the thing. Thus it is difficult to answer that question.

Balanced? Not sure, as I've haven't really thought about it deeply. That brings up a question though.

So, csuia, why exactly did you ask the question? What is the exact situation you are dealing with?

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi, I have two examples :

But first, Elite can reroll one dice (Gold rules) not only at CC.

1) the warp spiders : can they use their Elite ability when they fire on the fly ?

2) battlesuit XV8 Crisis : can they use their Elite and Jump-pack abilities when they fire on the fly ?

Thanks for your responses.

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"If you break my tea, I break your ass !" Grakor Urg Margor, the ork big boss who like tea !
(sea http://fbruntz.fr/lpt/regles/regles.html)

Oooh, I was wrong about the Elite re-roll. I guess I should have looked that up before commenting.

I'd say that the wording specifically about the re-roll answers that question as a yes. Core Rules page 43 says:

"Any die roll" being the key phrase. Thus yes, the re-roll from Elite should be usable during a Fire on the Fly.

Jump is a trickier issue though. As mentioned above, I think that it probably shouldn't be - at least from a game-balance perspective. It would be a fun way to do things though, so I'm not quite sure. Primarch does think that they should be usable together. Perhaps the best thing to do would be to discuss it with your specific gaming group and get a consensus that way.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

From Csuia's perspective I don't have a problem with either of his examples and would allow both of them.

I will ponder this some more and run some thought experiments trying to "break" this ability combining them with others.

In any event I don't like the blanket statement of "any ability" as it exist now. It should be more specific as it leads to interpretation issues (which is what started this discussion in the first place).

Primarch

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Hi all,

the "use special abilities" is cleary not the best wording. I agree with Peter that it's placed to prevent combining abilities like:

- benefiting a to-hit bonus from another power
- doing things during movement (as not being able to call an indirect barrage [That's for the Tau special case for Orbital Barrages calls] or be used as a spotter for indirect artillery barrage [For all armies])

Here is the list of units with Fire on the Fly ability:
> Eldars:
- Warp Spider
- Bright Lance Travois (Exodite Eldars)
- Missile Launcher Travois (Exodite Eldars)
- Star Cannon AA Travois (Exodite Eldars)

> Taus:
- All Battlesuits equiped with jump packs:
- XV25 Stealth Suits
- XV8 Crisis MK1
- XV8 Crisis MK2
- Sha'vre in Crisis
- Sha'el in Crisis
- Sha'o in Crisis

I do not see any reason to prevent a unit from using a jet-pack during its movement or using its elite ability, I doubt that they turn off jump packs during the battle Also Exodite Starcannon AA Travois should not lose the AA ability when performing Fire on the Fly attack.

The case for Tau Markerlights & Fire on the Fly is stated in the Tau Codex on page 6: "Markerlights can not be used in conjunction with the Fire on the Fly Ability."

I see one problem with Fire on the Fly : battlesuits have the Quickdraw ability and if the unit have Jump-packs it can use Fire on the Fly ability. But a unit with Quickdraw ability do not suffer the -1 to-hit penality for snap fire and so do not suffer the -1 to-hit penality for Fire on the Fly if the two abilities can be used at the same time.

So, I suggest that a unit with Fire on the Fly and Quickdraw abilities can not use the two abilities at the same time.

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"If you break my tea, I break your ass !" Grakor Urg Margor, the ork big boss who like tea !
(sea http://fbruntz.fr/lpt/regles/regles.html)

Hi!

That would be reasonable.

Primarch

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