Just FYI itcamefromthedeep, I've split up the post in NetEA Adeptus Astartes forum. This forum is for the Netepic game which is a different ruleset.
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28162
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| Points values and granularity http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=28161 |
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| Author: | itcamefromthedeep [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Points values and granularity |
The current iterations of army lists use points values in multiples of 25. A quck look through some army list development discussionsdemonstrates that this isn't enough granularity. For an individual non-WE unit (add one for X points) there are really only four points values. I don't think that's good enough, particularly when some units are simply outright copies of another, except with a minor benefit or loss. I'm thinking here of Blood Angels Rhino-chassis vehicles. I would strongly recommend either opening up the "acceptable" range of values, or failing that cut the prices down to 1:25 so that the mental math is easier. That would put a 3000-point game at the "true" 120-point value. By far I'd prefer the former, as eliminating the 2-for-75-points genre of options would allow players to use more of their collection in a game. |
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| Author: | Parintachin [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Fire Prisms are already costed at 65 points; it's not like it's a thing that hasn't already been done (o: |
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| Author: | itcamefromthedeep [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Well now, that's good to hear. So it's a matter of breaking down culture then. Cool. |
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| Author: | Dobbsy [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Just FYI itcamefromthedeep, I've split up the post in NetEA Adeptus Astartes forum. This forum is for the Netepic game which is a different ruleset. viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28162 |
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| Author: | primarch [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Hi! itcamefromthedeep, you may want to see the new points cost formulas that are being developed for net epic that attempt to truly balance and do away with the "multiples" question. You can follow them here: viewtopic.php?f=146&t=26989 and the specific army lists: viewtopic.php?f=148&t=27314 viewforum.php?f=151 viewtopic.php?f=153&t=27401 viewtopic.php?f=154&t=27337 viewtopic.php?f=149&t=27317 viewtopic.php?f=152&t=27646 viewtopic.php?f=150&t=28010 viewforum.php?f=147 viewtopic.php?f=157&t=28108 The refinement and adjustments are still on going, but it is the first real attempt to actually price in a consistent manner the different things that make a unit valuable. As you'll see from the cost, the "multiple of 25 syndrome" is certainly dead in this system. Primarch |
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| Author: | Parintachin [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
In that case, I'm being stupid. Not that I disagree about the points costs granulation, but fire prisms are 65 in NetEA, I have No clue what they're worth in NetEpic. Sorry. |
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| Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Oh, not stupid at all. Actually, your post and questions support the theory that people want more granularity. As Primarch mentioned, the Points Cost formula definitely has that. At the present time, model costs can have up to two decimal places of granularity, and formation costs are rounded to the nearest 5 points. |
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| Author: | Irisado [ Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Revising the cost formula is all just for Platinum though is it not? That's my understanding at any rate. It's not something that we're considering for NetEpic Gold. |
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| Author: | primarch [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Irisado wrote: Revising the cost formula is all just for Platinum though is it not? That's my understanding at any rate. It's not something that we're considering for NetEpic Gold. Hi! The new formula values "can be used with" gold but are not the default. Players can use them or ignore them. They will the default points cost for Platinum. Primarch |
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| Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
primarch wrote: Irisado wrote: Revising the cost formula is all just for Platinum though is it not? That's my understanding at any rate. It's not something that we're considering for NetEpic Gold. Hi! The new formula values "can be used with" gold but are not the default. Players can use them or ignore them. They will the default points cost for Platinum. Primarch What he said. In other words, no they are not "just" for Platinum, they will be available as an option for Gold. Just an option though. |
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| Author: | Irisado [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
I'm not convinced that this is a very good idea. I'd rather that we didn't mess around with even allowing this as an option for Gold. It sounds like a change too far to me, which is likely to cause arguments if some players want to use it while others do not. I'd make it Platinum only. |
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| Author: | primarch [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
Irisado wrote: I'm not convinced that this is a very good idea. I'd rather that we didn't mess around with even allowing this as an option for Gold. It sounds like a change too far to me, which is likely to cause arguments if some players want to use it while others do not. I'd make it Platinum only. Hi! You could say it's for just Platinum, but how would that stop people from using it for Gold? How is having this option different from all the other options available? Primarch |
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| Author: | MagnusIlluminus [ Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
The main reason for making it an option for Gold is to allow players who use the Gold Army lists to be able to fight against players who use the Platinum army lists and be assured that the forces will be balanced. The secondary reason for making it an option for Gold is for those players who think, as many here do, that the existing cost structure of Gold (and all previous editions) are just too random, arbitrary, and unbalanced and want a more balanced cost structure where they can be sure that equivalent models have the same cost. Just as a note, these values are NOT being put into any of the Gold pdf's at all. They will be listed in entirety in an as yet unmade "Optional Rules" or "Alternate Rules" pdf, which will likely contain Evolution rules and several other options as well. As with all Optional Rules, the Points Values Formula will require the consent of all active players to use, thus gaming groups will have to decide amongst themselves which to use at any given time. Personally, I expect any given group to use both (Gold normal and Points Formula) at different times until they decide which they collectively prefer. |
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| Author: | primarch [ Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
MagnusIlluminus wrote: The main reason for making it an option for Gold is to allow players who use the Gold Army lists to be able to fight against players who use the Platinum army lists and be assured that the forces will be balanced. The secondary reason for making it an option for Gold is for those players who think, as many here do, that the existing cost structure of Gold (and all previous editions) are just too random, arbitrary, and unbalanced and want a more balanced cost structure where they can be sure that equivalent models have the same cost. Just as a note, these values are NOT being put into any of the Gold pdf's at all. They will be listed in entirety in an as yet unmade "Optional Rules" or "Alternate Rules" pdf, which will likely contain Evolution rules and several other options as well. As with all Optional Rules, the Points Values Formula will require the consent of all active players to use, thus gaming groups will have to decide amongst themselves which to use at any given time. Personally, I expect any given group to use both (Gold normal and Points Formula) at different times until they decide which they collectively prefer. Hi! What Magnus said.  Primarch |
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| Author: | Irisado [ Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Points values and granularity |
primarch wrote: You could say it's for just Platinum, but how would that stop people from using it for Gold? By stating it's Platinum only :p  .Magnus: I'm old school on the points values. I've never had a problem with the way in which it was done, so I've never been in favour of changing it. Even if it is possible to prove that it is a better system, I still maintain that the original system is far from dysfunctional, and unless something really doesn't work well, I'm rarely in favour of altering it. Note that I recognise how much work you've been putting in to an alternative points structure, I just think that it would be better left as a Platinum only option. It's not worth dedicating pages and pages to discussing the merits or otherwise of this though, especially since I know that I'll be outvoted . If the rest of you want it, then it's clear that it will remain an option for Gold.
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