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Net Epic Gold Finalization

 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:01 pm 
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Sorry I've only just found the subforums and have spent the day reading over them, it seems like there is much more ongoing work than I had realised.

The way I see it is that the Gold core rules could just be made a bit easier to browse, particularly on mobiles during games. I'd suggest that quite a good solution would be to put them straight into a Google Doc for now and I will just do some quick formatting. It doesn't seem worth spending long on it. I think all the Special Rules and Optional Rules boxes are a bit distracting/confusing too.

The army books - particularly the Ork book - are almost unreadable in places, and are too slow to flick through. But I think these are the things that are going to change the most dramatically between Gold and Platinum (in fact I am not sure how much the Core rules are really changing from Gold to Platinum as by the sounds of it, a lot will be covered by the inclusion of errata into Gold and the cool new stuff - formulas and army formations etc, could be covered entirely in army books).

I volunteer to help with formatting the platinum rules if needed, I think it is better to save time and energy for these. I always loved the old cards and I think the tables in Gold are a poor substitute in terms of having something nice to look at.

One thing I can't find an answer to is - how much stuff will be cut from the old army books - for example in the Astartes book there are things like 'Flamer Marines' or the landspeeders in the Guard book. The Astartes book also has a whole section of rules for Crimson Suns marines that don't exist anywhere except for this book as far as I can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:20 pm 
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Hi!

I touched base with the person whom laid out NE Gold and unfortunately there is no such text only file.

I think its best to wait until I start updating the Gold files and I can make a text only version that would be amendable to formatting.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:14 pm 
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It is my understanding that nothing will be cut from Gold as such, just corrections of typos. A very few things may be added that were accidentally omitted, but nothing will be removed. Removing things would be counter to the purpose of giving people more options, and counter to the purpose of making as few changes to Gold as is possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:25 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
It is my understanding that nothing will be cut from Gold as such, just corrections of typos. A very few things may be added that were accidentally omitted, but nothing will be removed. Removing things would be counter to the purpose of giving people more options, and counter to the purpose of making as few changes to Gold as is possible.


Hi!

This is correct. The actually list of things to add, is indeed very small. Mostly omissions, others corrections. Their are some point changes and the issue of removing the reactor from the front hit location template on titans. But things like that are very few.

All the real "changes" are for the Platinum version.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:32 pm 
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Will things be cut from Platinum? Or will things like flamer marines stay in?


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Bruticus wrote:
Will things be cut from Platinum? Or will things like flamer marines stay in?


Hi!

We're usually not too keen on eliminating things, but there will be some measure of "house cleaning" as some things are no longer needed and we need to update the list to reflect the many new units added to the 40k universe.

In the case of flamer marines specifically, we'll probably keep them since I have a few special model projects that use them. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:33 am 
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I think one aspect of netepic that is quite outputting is the inclusion of some strange units - for example chaos gretchin or evil androids (mainly Space Crusade throwbacks I suppose). It's tricky in some instances because if the model exists then there ought to be rules, but a chaos army full of minotaurs and trolls would look very odd to a new player used to 40k.


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:50 am 
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Bruticus wrote:
I think one aspect of netepic that is quite outputting is the inclusion of some strange units - for example chaos gretchin or evil androids (mainly Space Crusade throwbacks I suppose). It's tricky in some instances because if the model exists then there ought to be rules, but a chaos army full of minotaurs and trolls would look very odd to a new player used to 40k.


Hi!

I understand your point fully. :)

However, its along held tradition that if a model exist, it must have rules. My chaos forces are old school, so they use minotaurs and trolls (as well as chaos dwarves and androids). Many net epic players have forces like mine so they can't be excluded entirely.

That being said, it doesn't mean the formations can't be updated to modern standards with such units occupying a secondary roll or entirely optional. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:42 am 
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One option would be to provide other roles for existing models perhaps - so minotaurs and trolls count as big mutants, evil androids as necrons (and aren't in the chaos book) and squats count as chaos space marines from high-gravity worlds...

I don't really think things need to be excluded in most cases as they can easily just be ignored, but I do think there are occasional things that ought to be looked at, like say, Shamblers or Breath of Nurgle.


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:47 am 
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Bruticus wrote:
One option would be to provide other roles for existing models perhaps - so minotaurs and trolls count as big mutants, evil androids as necrons (and aren't in the chaos book) and squats count as chaos space marines from high-gravity worlds...

I don't really think things need to be excluded in most cases as they can easily just be ignored, but I do think there are occasional things that ought to be looked at, like say, Shamblers or Breath of Nurgle.


Hi!

There's quite a few units that made in there when I wasn't looking. ;)

Some pruning is in order. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:38 am 
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Chaos Androids, Trolls, & Minotaurs are not "strange models" in any sense. They were part of the standard issue models for 1st & 2nd edition Epic, which is what NetEpic is based on. Androids are NOT "Space Crusade throwbacks" either. They were included on the "Stompers" sprue along with the Chaos, Eldar, & Marine Mk2 Dreadnoughts, and rules for them were in the 2nd edition Epic rules for Chaos units in the Renegades box.

Actually, the inclusion / retention of these models in the rules for NetEpic is exactly what I like about it. It allows me to continue to use parts of my collection that other rules do not. Telling me that I can use my trolls to represent something else is just unacceptable. They are Trolls, there are rules for Trolls, and there is no good reason that there should not be rules for Trolls. If you don't want to use a particular model or formation, then don't use it. Don't demand that the rules for something be removed just because you personally aren't going to use them. [Yes, I know you weren't demanding it, but you were suggesting it, and that is often the first step.]

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:22 am 
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I agree with Magnus. While I'm happy for new units to be added to army lists, I don't want to see long-established armies arsed around with.

I'm not against people using Squats as Marines from a high gravity world, but if what you are suggesting is removing the Squats from Epic then I have to say no, no NO!

To hell with what Gonad Wankers do in 40K!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:22 pm 
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I definitely wasn't demanding so this is maybe all a bit of an overreaction, and it's not something I feel strongly about because it is easy to just ignore entries that look odd. I do think there are some that could be evaluated without too many issues - chaos orks and gretchin maybe (considering you can ally with orks anyway?) But I won't push it.

I do know about the Stompers sprue, but I stick with my assertion about chaos androids, I think they were created for Space Crusade, included rather sheepishly in Epic and then forgotten about, and I personally don't feel that their snippet of lore in Renegades is enough to justify their existence. Chaos Squats are trickier as they showed up in more places and had some cool models, I suspect there is no place for them in modern 40k (I don't play 40k) but I like them. I was just joking when I said they could be marines from high gravity worlds!

I don't actually remember trolls or minotaurs ever being in 40k, maybe they were mentioned in Rogue Trader but never had specific models? I do find it curious that they have 6mm models.

There was talk elsewhere about removing Imperial Guard landspeeders, but models exist for those.

There are a few entries that I don't agree with because they seem to be inventions - like Shamblers or Breath of Nurgle (or Crimson Suns marines) but I wouldn't mind playing against them, just I don't think they should be in the main rules.

Just to reiterate - I'm definitely not demanding anything, but if lots of new units are being added - possibly too many new units - then perhaps there are options, like a 'classic chaos' list for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:36 am 
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I may have overreacted a bit. I do that at times. Apologies.

I have to admit that I have no idea why Orks or Gretchin are on the Chaos Renegades list. I have no problem with them being there, but don't know when they were put in. It was certainly after 2nd edition.

It was my understanding that Space Crusade was made in the scale of standard W40K. Thus saying that the Epic scale models were made for use in that game seems entirely silly to me. Admittedly, I've never played Space Crusade, so I could be mistaken. I suppose they may have been added to Epic just to get some more use out of the design since Space Crusade didn't do as well, but since they are an official unit they should stay.

That said, I very rarely use them. Their randomness of who controls them can be rather annoying. In all honesty, I have considered using them an stand ins for Necrons if I were to ever play a tabletop game with them. So while I don't use them, I still feel they should be in the list. It also wouldn't surprise me at all if the Chaos Android design was the inspiration for Necrons in the first place.

While Trolls and Minotaurs were used more in fantasy, they do have entries in 1st and 2nd edition W40K as well. The 'Chaos Codex' for 2nd edition does list them. Admittedly they are in the back with the Chaos Cultist list, but they are in the game. I cannot speak as to any edition from 3rd and on, but they were in W40K 2nd, which is mostly what Epic 2nd and thus NetEpic (up to Gold anyway) are based on. I do agree that they (probably anyway) didn't have specifically W40K models, but as the two are entirely melee based using models from fantasy was not an issue. I actually have a fantasy troll that I used in W40K way back in the way back time.

Actually, I just thought of an argument against including many of these odder, fringe models in the main rules. The Points Formula will let any player put stats to any model they want and have them be (reasonably) balanced against standard troops and the creations of other players. Since that is going to be a standard part of Platinum, Platinum could easily get away with just detailing a sampling of basic models and let the player design anything special. Like Shamblers, the Breath of Nurgle, or special Marine Chapters. Heck, Platinum could probably just detail the basic Tactical Marine squad and have options like "to turn it into Assault troops, do this ..." and "to turn it into Heavy Weapon troops, do this ...". Rhino and Land Raider would each be detailed, but not their variants as those could be built by adjusting the design of the base unit.

So I guess I could be convinced that removing some models from the base lists could be a good idea, as any of those models could be recreated by using the Points Formula.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Gold Finalization
PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:45 am 
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Hi!

I will confess that when gold was made, toward the end of its development, due to real life issue I was kind of "out of it".

Thus a lot of things that perhaps I would not have "okay'd" made it into the rules.

So I would not be surprised with a lot of oddities you may find in them.

But that was then and this is now. So we get to decide what exactly we'd like or not.

Your not the only one scratching his head when you read certain entries. ;)

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