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Ork Clan Question

 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:33 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
Well,I don't play orks, I don't particularly like orks, I don't know anyone who plays orks and I am not likely to ever meet anyone who plays orks, but for what its worth, I would be in favor of that idea. ;D


Nice one, that gave me a good laugh! ;D

Cheers Primarch, I clearly hadn't properly understood the implications of the full 3,000 points rule. As outlined above though, the value of all clans added together is 3,950 points. Assuming that I didn't want to buy any support/special cards (highly improbable), I'd feel perfectly within my rights to buy my 2nd Goff/Bad Moons clan from thereon in as I had satisfied the main requirement of the rules which is that you must have one of each of the other clans before you can buy a 2nd.

It's probably not even worth discussing this much further as you'd pretty much always want Gargants and tanks to back up your clans so would I ever get to the point where I would want a 2nd clan before hitting the 6K mark? Not likely! The only situation where I think this might happen would be in a large attack/defend scenario where Orks are defending. Even then I'd still expect to take a large amount of tanks as support.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:52 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
Interestingly, the Core Rulebook suggests a way around my problem. Page 13 on Unique Cards:

"You may take one of a Unique Card (such as the Snakebite Ork Clan) for every full 3,000 points in your army, though personalities (such as Commissar Yarrik) may never be duplicated. Unique Cards usually count as Special Cards."

I'm certain it is not the way the game should be played, but by implication, for a battle of 4,000 points, I could buy 2 Bad Moon Clans without having to bother about what other Ork clans there are.


That is an odd reference. Looks like the person who wrote that did not communicate with the person who wrote the 'No Duplicate Clans' rule in the Ork Codex. In the Ork Codex, the Clans are never referred to as being 'Unique' cards, as they are not. Limited yes, but not Unique (like the Commissar).

Actually, just a ways before that quoted bit is another relevant bit that weighs in on this issue. The last sentence of the second paragraph after the "Putting an army together" heading: "Special rules found in an Army Book generally supersede those found here..."

In my opinion, the latter part of that sentence (not quoted) should be dropped, as should the word "generally" from the quoted part, as Special Rules in a Codex should always override general rules. Leaving it to the discretion of the players might mean that different players in the same game are using different rules.

---

Just saw Primarch's reply. Perhaps the wording in the core rules needs to be cleaned up a bit.

First, the Clans are not 'Unique'. Perhaps a new entry for 'Limited' or 'Restricted'. The Commissar is Unique, and thus should not have duplicates regardless of army point size.

Second, perhaps change the wording to: "Once your army equals or exceeds 6000 points, you may take one additional 'Limited' card per full 3000 points of army." Or something along those lines that specifically mentions 6000 points.


Hi!

I agree some clean up is in order. I like the idea of the "limited" reference.

Clan cards are limited to 1 per 3000 points, or something like that.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:39 am 
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primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
Interestingly, the Core Rulebook suggests a way around my problem. Page 13 on Unique Cards:

"You may take one of a Unique Card (such as the Snakebite Ork Clan) for every full 3,000 points in your army, though personalities (such as Commissar Yarrik) may never be duplicated. Unique Cards usually count as Special Cards."

I'm certain it is not the way the game should be played, but by implication, for a battle of 4,000 points, I could buy 2 Bad Moon Clans without having to bother about what other Ork clans there are.


Hi!

No. Every FULL 3000 points. You don't get the second one until you have 6000 points. The wording was done this way to avoid this loophole.

The point of these rules was that the clans are not equal. As it stands there is no point to bring anyone but goffs and bad moonz.

With this rule you are obligated to bring the rest of the clans before you start duplicating, or play very large battles to ignore the rules (every 3000 points).

For this rule to be eliminated the whole ork infantry list of stats would need to be revised or the costs of the clans adjusted. Not a bad idea, but one that was not favored in the past.

Primarch


That is how I read the unique rules. You need to play 6000pt games before you can access second copies of unique formations.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:45 am 
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Madboyz rule in the Ork army book states: "All the Madboyz present in a battle form a single Mob that acts independently, no matter which Clan purchased them."

In the army cards section it states the Madboyz Mobs add to Break Point and therefore VPs to the mob that purchased them.

Am I right in assuming that the reference to them acting independently just means you can put them anywhere on the battlefield that you like but that they will count to the Break Points of whoever bought them?

Also, the fact that these (along with Gretchin) are free cards: do they require slots - Support or Special - to purchase, or can be bought irrespective which slots are free (much like the Avatar for Eldar)?

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:06 am 
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MadBoyz form their own "small clan" and as all madboyz in the army form a single mob, they add +2 break point to their mob, not +2 to the clan that pick the card.

Orks Free cards (special or support) still use a slot. Only the Avatar has a special rule that does not make it count in the card limitation.

Moreover, you can only have 1 free card per company card (support or special), this is stated in the Gold Rule Book page 13.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:24 am 
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scream wrote:
MadBoyz form their own "small clan" and as all madboyz in the army form a single mob, they add +2 break point to their mob, not +2 to the clan that pick the card.

Orks Free cards (special or support) still use a slot. Only the Avatar has a special rule that does not make it count in the card limitation.

Moreover, you can only have 1 free card per company card (support or special), this is stated in the Gold Rule Book page 13.


Ah, well spotted! Thanks Scream, much appreciated!

Just to clarify, if I bought a Bad Moons Clan and took a Madboyz free card, the following happens:

1) The Bad Moons Clan break point and VPs remains the same
2) The break point for the Madboyz is 2 and they provide 1 VP. If I took 2 or more of these, they would build into a larger mob, i.e. 2 stands would have BP 4, VPs 2, 3 stands BP6, VPs 3, etc.
3) Each Madboyz card uses a support cards slot
4) The Madboyz can be placed on the battlefield independently of their clan.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:59 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
1) The Bad Moons Clan break point and VPs remains the same
2) The break point for the Madboyz is 2 and they provide 1 VP. If I took 2 or more of these, they would build into a larger mob, i.e. 2 stands would have BP 4, VPs 2, 3 stands BP6, VPs 3, etc.
3) Each Madboyz card uses a support cards slot
4) The Madboyz can be placed on the battlefield independently of their clan.


Exactly ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Perfect! Cheers mate! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:22 am 
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Another day, another question! :sos

Gargant fires: When rolling in the End Phase on the Fire Table, is it 1 or 2 D6 that should be rolled? 1D6 would make it impossible to destroy the Gargant outright until several fires are burning but that may well be correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:48 am 
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1 dice for the fire roll


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:27 pm 
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scream wrote:
1 dice for the fire roll


You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! Thanks for coming to the rescue again! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:44 am 
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@Primarch: you may be interested to revisit this thread for the finalisation of the Ork book, I just noticed that there was reference above to cleaning up the rules about duplicate clans.

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:58 am 
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More questions:

Super heavies: even though units like Gibletgrindas have their own on board Nob, do they still form a clan if you buy multiple units within the one clan? I'm assuming they do so if I want more activations it would be prudent to buy them across clans. Presumably the same rule applies to Mega-Squiggoths also?

Mega-Squiggoth: they have 3 wounds. I'm working on the assumption that this means they can take 3 wounds and that a fourth wound is death, not the third. Is this correct?

Also, every time a MS takes a wound it potentially goes on the rampage. Assuming that it fails all 3 times, you could have the MS travel 120cm in one turn, is this right (unlikely as it may be)?!

If I was crazy enough to load a clan of Boyz on to my 3 Mega-Squiggoths (who again work as a single mob unless I buy one from each clan presumably) what happens to the Boyz on board if the MS rampage? There is a high chance they will end up breaking the Mob coherency rule. How does that work for future turns? Do I have to try to regroup the MS to bring the on board Boyz back into coherency? If I have a Nob on board would the Boyz still be able to fire during even though the Mov coherency rule has been broken?

Most clans have 19 stands. The MS can carry 6 each, meaning I'd have a lone stand problem. Can I opt not to use a single stand for the battle? I'm assuming not, but it is bloody annoying!

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:09 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
More questions:
Super heavies: even though units like Gibletgrindas have their own on board Nob, do they still form a clan if you buy multiple units within the one clan? I'm assuming they do so if I want more activations it would be prudent to buy them across clans. Presumably the same rule applies to Mega-Squiggoths also?


Super heavies of the same type forms a mob inside a clan. So 3 Gibletgrindas attached to the same clan will form a mob of 3 gibbletgrindas. Mega-Squiggoths are support cards so MS attached to the same clan will create a mob.


The Bissler wrote:
Mega-Squiggoth: they have 3 wounds. I'm working on the assumption that this means they can take 3 wounds and that a fourth wound is death, not the third. Is this correct?

Units with wounds die when they have as many wounds as their "max" wounds (NetEpic Gold page 38 Top Left paragraph, Special Ability: Multiple Wounds". So for example:
MS: 3 wounds
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 2 wounds
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 1 wound
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 0 wound and it dies.
So 3 unsaved hits will be enough to kill a 3 wounds creature (if it can not regenerate wounds off course).

The Bissler wrote:
Also, every time a MS takes a wound it potentially goes on the rampage. Assuming that it fails all 3 times, you could have the MS travel 120cm in one turn, is this right (unlikely as it may be)?!

At max, it can fail 2 times (3rd time, it's dead) so total move could be up to 60cm.

The Bissler wrote:
If I was crazy enough to load a clan of Boyz on to my 3 Mega-Squiggoths (who again work as a single mob unless I buy one from each clan presumably) what happens to the Boyz on board if the MS rampage? There is a high chance they will end up breaking the Mob coherency rule. How does that work for future turns? Do I have to try to regroup the MS to bring the on board Boyz back into coherency? If I have a Nob on board would the Boyz still be able to fire during even though the Mov coherency rule has been broken?

Units on First Fire Orders are allowed to stay out of coherency but only if coherency was broken by casualties...So if you strictly apply the rules, you must get back in coherency in next movement phase.
Imho, the condition for being allowed to be out of coherency should also apply to "involuntary" effects (rampage for MS or enemy powers that move your units).

The Bissler wrote:
Most clans have 19 stands. The MS can carry 6 each, meaning I'd have a lone stand problem. Can I opt not to use a single stand for the battle? I'm assuming not, but it is bloody annoying!

I think it's OK to drop 1 stand but it counts as a loss for end phase break point calculation.


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 Post subject: Re: Ork Clan Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:19 am 
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scream wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
More questions:
Super heavies: even though units like Gibletgrindas have their own on board Nob, do they still form a clan if you buy multiple units within the one clan? I'm assuming they do so if I want more activations it would be prudent to buy them across clans. Presumably the same rule applies to Mega-Squiggoths also?


Super heavies of the same type forms a mob inside a clan. So 3 Gibletgrindas attached to the same clan will form a mob of 3 gibbletgrindas. Mega-Squiggoths are support cards so MS attached to the same clan will create a mob.


The Bissler wrote:
Mega-Squiggoth: they have 3 wounds. I'm working on the assumption that this means they can take 3 wounds and that a fourth wound is death, not the third. Is this correct?

Units with wounds die when they have as many wounds as their "max" wounds (NetEpic Gold page 38 Top Left paragraph, Special Ability: Multiple Wounds". So for example:
MS: 3 wounds
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 2 wounds
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 1 wound
Take 1 unsaved hit: now MS has 0 wound and it dies.
So 3 unsaved hits will be enough to kill a 3 wounds creature (if it can not regenerate wounds off course).

The Bissler wrote:
Also, every time a MS takes a wound it potentially goes on the rampage. Assuming that it fails all 3 times, you could have the MS travel 120cm in one turn, is this right (unlikely as it may be)?!

At max, it can fail 2 times (3rd time, it's dead) so total move could be up to 60cm.

The Bissler wrote:
If I was crazy enough to load a clan of Boyz on to my 3 Mega-Squiggoths (who again work as a single mob unless I buy one from each clan presumably) what happens to the Boyz on board if the MS rampage? There is a high chance they will end up breaking the Mob coherency rule. How does that work for future turns? Do I have to try to regroup the MS to bring the on board Boyz back into coherency? If I have a Nob on board would the Boyz still be able to fire during even though the Mov coherency rule has been broken?

Units on First Fire Orders are allowed to stay out of coherency but only if coherency was broken by casualties...So if you strictly apply the rules, you must get back in coherency in next movement phase.
Imho, the condition for being allowed to be out of coherency should also apply to "involuntary" effects (rampage for MS or enemy powers that move your units).

The Bissler wrote:
Most clans have 19 stands. The MS can carry 6 each, meaning I'd have a lone stand problem. Can I opt not to use a single stand for the battle? I'm assuming not, but it is bloody annoying!

I think it's OK to drop 1 stand but it counts as a loss for end phase break point calculation.


Cheers Scream, this is very helpful!

I get what you are saying about the maximum move but I was including the MS' movement for the turn, so revised it would be 90cm! That could be deadly!

I agree about the involuntary coherency rule, would like to see that in the new rules. Would also be good to see something about willfully dropping off part of your clan to accommodate units being assigned to transports.

Thanks again, your help is always much appreciated! ;D

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