Hi!

Titan experience rules date back to the early AT days and got a more extensive remake in under second edition with Titan Legions.

Having used both I will share my thoughts on their relative disadvantages and why I decided on certain design parameters.

The rules were in a sense "fiddly" since you had to keep track of experience and given how frequent people get to play you needed to accrue a bit too many "points" to get "upgrades". I wanted something that requires less bookkeeping and the possibility of quicker accrual of points in a more realistic amount of games played.

Also I wanted to keep the random nature of what you get since any sort of free player selection tends to overuse of certain options. All options should be good and worthwhile.

I also wanted to make a distinction between upgrades on the "machine god-titan" and the crew. More importantly to ensure that a crew that escapes death (even when its titan does not), keeps its abilities.

Rules.

A titan crew gains ONE experience point per battle that it survives. This makes sure that you gain at least a point for playing the game. Every game counts, even if the titan doesn't do anything spectacular, if it survives it gets a point.

Killing stuff is the titans specialty, but want counts as a worthy foe? To keep it simple if a titan gets a kill on an enemy titan it gains 1 experience point per "tier" of power. Thus, ONE point for a warhound or similar, TWO for a reaver or similar, THREE for a warlord or similar and a whopping SIX for Imperator class or similar. Note the "or similar" applies to praetorians as well (worthy foe!!). The easiest way to solve the "similar" is to look at point values in comparison to the titan in question.

As for non-titan kills, 1 experience point per VP of the broken unit.

For example is a warlord survives the battle, killed 1 reaver and broke a unit worth 2 VP it gets a total of 5 XP, 1 for the battle, two for the reaver and two for the two VP unit.

XP table. I basically made the table in multiples of 5 points, since the original Titan Legion got a little ridiculous in its XP accrual at higher levels. Keep in mind that experienced titans had HUGE targets on their backs and are coveted kills. So even with experience, surviving was difficult business. I didn't want to make it worse by an unrealistic advancement table.

XP TABLE BATTLE HONORS XP LEVEL
0-5 0 Moderati
6-15 1 Princeps
16-30 2 Princeps Senioris
31-50 3 Princeps Majoris
51-75 4 Princeps Primus
76-100 5 Princeps Commander
101+ 6 Legio Grandmaster

If you have accrued sufficient XP to increase to higher level you gain 1 battle honor. Roll a d6 for honor type

Roll Honor Type
1-3 Crew skill
4-6 Titan upgrade

Once type is determined roll on the table for that type to determine the specific honor gained.


I will list skills and upgrades in a separate post.

Primarch

Looks good so far.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Hi!

I have to give some though on the actual skill and upgrade list, since I do not want to make a different list for every race, but one list that can benefit all. Also all options need to be good as well.

I'll probably post that tomorrow. I'm tired after 6 days of unpacking stuff.....

Primarch

I bet you are! I can hardly wait to see the pics.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

5 points per level is a massive improvement over the old 10 points per level which was near impossible to acchieve.

My one quibble would be that by reducing the XP of the Titans, I'd be more interested in breaking companies of vehicles and infantry as you would be able to rack up a lot more XP. Given that killing Titans is about to become a lot harder, wouldn't it be best to keep the rule of VPs = XP?

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Hi!

Perhaps you are right. I will think it through some more.

I had to do some work and licensure related stuff today, so I won't be posting anything rules wise today. I didn't even get to work on the primarchload.

The weekend should give me some time to do a little of both.

Primarch

Interesting. There was a lot of detailed stuff in the old AT rules. My favourite was you could build your own classes of titans.
Not many people did it due to lack of suitable proxy models.

Hi!

The titan building rules for net epic were inspired by those rules. You buy an "empty" chassis and fitted the weapons load out. We just added a system of points and VP structure to it. We left out the cool pattern/configuration names of AT (Nemesis, Deathbringer, etc), but otherwise the net epic system was virtually a copy/paste of that system with second edition space marine mechanics added to it.

I still think the original AT rules are top notch, their only problem being they were designed in absence of non-titan units. So when they were added them it did NOT mesh well. There are fewer beautiful things that a all titan battle under AT rules, but the flip side to that is there are fewer things more painful than a game with titans AND non titan units under the AT rules. Painful....

Second edition did a good job of making a level system so non-titan's could mesh with titans, but I believe they also gutted (nerfed) and took away some of the cool flavor titans had under AT. The net epic titan building rules were an attempt to bring some of that flavor back. It now seems we want to add some more of then with the alternate rules.....

Primarch

Following up about the XP, here is my case for why VPs should equal XP and why I think that your lowering of the threshold for levelling up should also be implemented;

If memory serves me correctly, the 10 XP required per level was an idea that was originally introduced in Adeptus Titanicus. Under that system and SM1, it was pretty hard to destroy Titans, so it wasn't inconceivable that a Titan or even Titans could survive until the end of a battle. However, under SM2 & NetEpic thereafter, I rarely see Titans surviving until the end of the battle to even collect whatever XP they may have earned during the game.

Given that it seems like a pretty decent achievement for a Titan to still be standing at the end of a battle, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they should gain some reward if they have managed to accumulate 5VPs. There is a slight possibility that a Titan could collect enough VPs/XPs to move up 2 levels, but to be honest, that would mean that they had scored 15VPs and probably would have had to take an enemy Titan to score that highly. A Titan that has managed to win that many points in a single battle would be the stuff of legend, and therefore a couple of bonuses doesn't seem out of place. Let's face it, the next time they are in battle they are incredibly likely to be destroyed so it isn't as if they'll get too much use out of the rewards!

One more question: Are any XP points awarded for Titans holding objectives at the end of the battle?

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This looks very interesting. I'm planning to use some form of XP system in my campaign, at least for Titans and possibly for Praetorians as well. Admittedly, it will probably be a while before it becomes relevant. I'll probably use this one if I like it, which from what I've seen so far seems likely. I don't generally favor random generation of rewards like you suggested (except for Chaos - really appropriate there), but I'd give it a try.

Good luck getting the rewards to work across Faction. I can see Crew rewards possibly working that way, for most Factions anyway, but hardware upgrades would almost have to be species by species, as the tech that Humans use is significantly different from Orks, Eldar, Tyranid, Slann, etc. Sure, there are similarities, but in my mind the differences are telling. For example, only Orks have to worry about fires aboard their machines. Only Eldar have Holo Fields. Tyranid's Titans are actually biologically alive. Any system that did not address these would be lacking.

The Bissler brings up some good points as well. Additionally, in any campaign where Titan XP rules are in play, Titans will be likely to receive that much more attention from the opponent, as they know that if it survives, it will only be tougher to kill next time. Just a thought to consider.

Just in case it isn't obvious, I am trying to be helpful. I'm really hoping this can be a comprehensive system.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

After digesting feedback, some changes:

1. Since titans (and praetorians) are difficult to kill let go with the old rules for VP=XP. So for each VP the titan/praetorian is worth 1 XP is given. This should accelerate advancement quite a bit.

2. Since fluff and character is a big thing when you play epic, I'll will make separate lists for the epic races. They will be decided into "crew" and "upgrade". The actual name may differ depending on army list, but they will break down in that way.

3. "Randomness". I'm torn with this one. To split the different, you'll roll for what type (crew versus upgrade), but will be allowed to pick from the appropriate list. It's so difficult to earn and survive might as well let people tailor their honors.

Regarding objectives and titan missions. Having played these extensively, I basically throwing these out. Titan missions are either too easy to accomplish or impossible. As far as i see it a titans mission is to engage the foe (especially enemy titans) and destroy them. That IS their mission.

Letting titans get XP for holding objectives encourages "turtling". That is reach a close objective and sit on it on first fire. Titan lore shows titans striding across the battlefield slaying all before it. I wish to encourage more maneuver from titans. With the alternate rules, titans should be constantly moving and shooting. Not staying in place for the whole battle.

Titans with Honors and VP

The cost to bring a titan with honor to battle is not changed as it increases its skill. Thus is your warlord cost 900 points to build, it will cost the same regardless the amount of honors it has. That's the benefit of a skilled titan. You have earn this. However, the prestige involved in destroying such opponents is HUGE. So add 1 extra VP to those awarded for destroying the titan per honor achieved. Thus a "grandmaster" with 6 honors awards +6 extra VP to the base VP of the titan (in our warlord example 9VP for base + 6VP for honors for a total of 15VP's!!).

Honor Loss and maintenance.

Titans with honor destroyed in battle retain all crew honors (if they escape alive) and are ported over when they command a new titan. Upgrades are lost when the titan is destroyed in battle.

Grandmaster's Influence

Achieving Grandmaster status is rare. Thus they are granted a boon no other Princeps can boast. When a Grandmaster's titan is destroyed (assuming the crew survives) the Grandmaster new requisitioned titan will automatically receive TWO titan upgrades. Such is the power of the Grandmaster's influence!

As an additional option, princeps of majoris status and above (short of grandmaster) gain ONE titan upgrade.
Crew survival

When the titan is destroyed in battle the crew has a slim chance of survival. Roll a d6 and on a 6 the crew has ejected successfully and survives to fight another day.

For every TWO honor obtained a bonus of +1 is added to this roll. The maximum bonus at grandmaster level is +3 (a roll of 1 or 2 is a failure, survival is NEVER a sure thing!).

My next post will start listing crew skills and upgrades, but I wanted to clarify that since titan upgrades can be short lived, they will be more POWERFUL in comparison to crew skills which have a higher degree of reuse due to survival.

Primarch

Hi!

Imperial Titan Crew Skills

1. Marksmanship. The moderati is particularly blessed by the machine spirits. The attack dice from ONE weapon (chosen by player once honor is taken, weapon selection is permanent) that miss may be re-rolled once. If the weapon is ever destroyed (blown off, etc) the moderati linked to the weapon is slain and the honor lost. This may be taken multiple times. Once per weapon system.

2. Blessed by the Machine God. The servitors and tech priest that are part of the crew show superb efficiency. Re-roll missed repair rolls (this applies to all downed shields) once.

3. Tactical Genius. The princeps is a master of the codex titanicus! Once per game the princeps may take TWO activations. They CAN NOT be consecutive. Plasma usage remains as normal, so the titan needs to have sufficient plasma to fuel its actions. If the Princeps is of grandmaster level it may take TWO activations (still cannot be consecutive).

4. Emperor Guide Me! The moderati is supremely devout and the name of the Emperor always on his lips! One weapon selected receives a EXTRA attack dice AND any shots against enemy units with hit location templates roll TWICE for scatter and the player takes the MOST FAVORABLE one for his shot. This may be taken multiple times, once per weapon system.

5. Berserker Fury! The Princeps is particularly vicious and adept at close combat. The titan re-rolls losses in close combat once per turn.

6. Lightning Reflexes. The crews mind impulse units have been superbly maintained and their coordination is without peer. The cost for first fire control is reduced to one plasma and advanced fire consumes no plasma. All titan weapons suffer no penalties for snap fire

Imperial Titan Upgrades

1. Masterwork Plasma Reactor. Thrice blessed by the highest Magos Technologis of Mars, this reactor purrs with efficiency. Titan generates a bonus 1d3 plasma.

2. Adamantium Shielding. Roll TWO dice for armor saving throws and pick the highest.

3. Ejector system. Roll TWO dice for crew survival with +1 bonus (cumulative with honor bonus)

4. Turbo Weapons. The titan receives advanced prototype weapons. -1 save modifier bonus to all weapons. +1 to damage rolls on all weapons. Destroyed weapons are replaced with another prototype weapon.

5. Increased Shielding. Plasma output for shields increased. At beginning of turn titan gains +1d3 additional shields that turn.

6. Augmented Ammo Feed. The weapons munitions (ballistic or energy) is increased for sustained autofire. When firing a weapon it fire an additional +1d3 shots (+1d3 attack dice) at the cost of 1 plasma. Plasma weapons have an increased cost of TWO plasma for the extra burst of shots (in addition to their standard shots). Applies to one weapon system when honor is taken. May be taken multiple times.

Thoughts and comments please.

Primarch

Hi!

Chaos Titans

They use the same rules for Imperial titan crew skills and titan upgrades (when I make the lists I will change the names and flavor text of course), However each time a chaos titan receives an honor, there is a change the chaos gods are watching and a chaos reward is granted. But the chaos gods are fickle as well as unpredictable, so what is obtained is not certain....

When you receive an honor roll a d6. If the number is equal or LOWER than the amount of honors accrued a chaos reward is obtained (at the highest level a reward is automatic).

If a chaos reward is gained, you get the one equal in number to your honors. So if you have one honor and get a reward you get a chaos tail (number 1). If you have 4 honors and get a reward you get number 4 Soul eternal. Note you get EXACTLY the one for your number of honors. You don't get to select number three if you have 4 or more honors. Chaos gods demand you accept their gifts as IS!

Chaos Rewards

In addition to the extra VP yielded upon destruction for honors, additional VP are awarded for chaos reward equal to the number on the table to gain chaos rewards (I made them in increasing power, so the last ones are whoppers!!!)

1. Chaos tail. The titan grows a tail that gives +2 to CAF and a shooting weapon with the battle cannon stat line. Both features cannot be used in same turn. If you already have a tail increase caf to +4 and double attack dice for firing weapons, +1 to hit and -1 save modifier bonus.

2. Chaos Head. The head of the titan changes to reflect the crews preferred chaos god. Players choice.

Khorne: Close combat bonus +3, re-roll failed close combat dice (cumulative with crew upgrade) non-titan units within 25 cm must roll morale or fall back.
Tzeentch: Ray of change. Use Battlecannon stat line with 4 attack dice. Any unit hit and failing its armor save gets transformed into pink horrors if of lesser than "knight class". Units of knight class are transformed into Lords of Change. Titans/praetorians are unaffected.
Slannesh: Soporific mist. All units within 25cm lose one close combat die (roll 1d6 instead of 2) unless a psychic save is made. Also if the titan wins close combat the tongue lashes out and attempts to snap one weapon off (players choice). Roll on damage table immediately.
Nurgle: Stream of Corruption. Use the large flame template. Effects as Great unlean one stream of corruption.

If you already have a head add these powers as a bonus to what you already have (cumulative).

3. Attuned to the warp. The titan, given the gods capricious desires, may open a rent into the warp and may move through it a distance equal to its charge move. When it travels thusly it is immune to any kind of reactionary fire. If the titan chooses to charge out of the warp and engage in close combat it gains a bonus +1d6 to close combat rolls.

The ability is not reliable however. Roll 1d6 to see effects when a warp hole is opened.

1 The chaos titan is sucked into the warp and is delayed. The titan spends the rest of the turn in the warp and may exit the next turn.
2-3 The warp tunnel is opened but leads to the wrong place. Roll for scatter direction and roll 4d6 for distance.
4-5 The warp tunnel is stable and opens on desired location
6. Not only does it open as intended, but when the attack is completed roll for scatter with 4d6 and the titan moves a second time as the warp whisks the titan to safety.. or even greater doom....

4. Soul eternal. The crew and titan are one. They are fused in some unholy fashion. When the titan is destroyed you still roll for crew survival as the soul can escape imminent death. If it survives and inhabits another titan it transforms it anew into the lost titan! Crew AND titan upgrades are KEPT!

5. Essence of Chaos. The reactor churns living souls. Its power is of such potency you gain the benefits of increased ammo feed, increased shielding and turbo weapons!

6. Daemonhood! The titans turns into a giant daemon of chaos undivided. Titan gains ALL the powers of greater demons. It contributes to the chaos deck like a greater demon would and can use chaos cards like a lord of battle. Psychic vulnerabilities of demons apply.

I made these REALLY over the top. But since are basically level dependent, you'll mostly encounter heads and tails. If you run into a daemon titan and didn't bring a psi-titan, you get what you deserve....

Thoughts and Comments?

Primarch

Hi!

That's it for today. Coming up later, eldar, orks and tyanids.

Primarch

Hi Primarch,

First off, great work. Particularly amused that my Warlord Titan tactics have a name - "turtling"!


Just a few points/questions about a few things (sorry, but I know these will be annoying):-

"When the titan is destroyed in battle the crew has a slim chance of survival. Roll a d6 and on a 6 the crew has ejected successfully and survives to fight another day."
I know you can make this save a bit easier with more XP, but I'm just thinking that this roll is pretty harsh, particularly when you consider that with the removal of the reactor on the front hit charts that the head will always be the target now for players. On the other hand, if it is the head that is the focus for all damage, maybe escape should be bloody hard! I dunno, torn about this one!

"Blessed by the Machine God. The servitors and tech priest that are part of the crew show superb efficiency. Re-roll missed repair rolls (this applies to all downed shields) once."
I'm assuming that you would do all of your repair rolls in the end phase and then if you chose to use the skill could re-roll any you had missed. What about in the case of a damaged reactor? Could you only reroll to see if you could get it back online OR roll for to get the reactor back online, and if succesful get to roll for shields back THEN reroll missed shield repair rolls?

"Tactical Genius. The princeps is a master of the codex titanicus! Once per game the princeps may take TWO activations. They CAN NOT be consecutive. Plasma usage remains as normal, so the titan needs to have sufficient plasma to fuel its actions. If the Princeps is of grandmaster level it may take TWO activations (still cannot be consecutive)."
Think there is a typo here. I don't see what the difference is for the Princeps of grandmaster level. Is it maybe that he can use the skill twice in the game? Also, they "CAN NOT be consecutive", I'm not sure how you could use these consecutively, but maybe I'm being thick!

"Emperor Guide Me!"
Wow! This skill with Volcano Cannon is a madman! The VC was always a Titan killer, now it has just become 3x more lethal!

"Masterwork Plasma Reactor. Thrice blessed by the highest Magos Technologis of Mars, this reactor purrs with efficiency. Titan generates a bonus 1d3 plasma."
What happens if this makes the Titan go over its limit for plasma? Does it overload, or would it be assumed that the techs would flush excess plasma away (unless the player wanted to take a chance)?

"Increased Shielding. Plasma output for shields increased. At beginning of turn titan gains +1d3 additional shields that turn."
Could I suggest that the shielding not vary from turn to turn but rather the additional shields are rolled before the battle and stay that way throughout? I'm just thinking it could get messy when shields start getting knocked off and some repaired, etc.

"Augmented Ammo Feed. The weapons munitions (ballistic or energy) is increased for sustained autofire. When firing a weapon it fire an additional +1d3 shots (+1d3 attack dice) at the cost of 1 plasma. Plasma weapons have an increased cost of TWO plasma for the extra burst of shots (in addition to their standard shots). Applies to one weapon system when honor is taken. May be taken multiple times."
Ay-yi-yiii! Thinking again of the Volcano Cannon again here, if you had this on more than one weapon, would it be one plasma per weapon with the upgrade? I'm thinking extreme here, would 4 VCs that rolled maximums, ie 16 shots cost an extra one or four plasma to fire?

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