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Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17963 |
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Author: | ulric [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Before the Tau codex  shows up, I have some suggestions about Tau stats and point costs Here is my proposal about Tau rail guns: Light Rail gun: Range 75cm TH +3 TS -1 Pen +1..............Units: Bettlesuits Medium Rail gun: Range 75cm TH+3 TS-2 Pen +2...........Units: Hammerheads,Tigersharks,Vektor Knights Heavy Rail gun: Range 100cm TH +3 TS -3 Pen +3...........Units: Manta/Moray, Swordfish Super Heavy Tanks Battlesuits cost: I think 500 for the Boardsides is to high you changed from 4.1 to 5.0: TH +3 >>>TH +4 Points 350>>>500 thats to much I think 400 will do it I loose every battle, I fought with the Tau, half of my boardsides in Turn 1 Crisissuites: 250 points is to low I think 300/units is better Tau Command units For every Co. which is lead by a battlesuit command unit , I raised the cost up to 50 points thats still cheap Tigershark: The railgun variant is to expensive and has a low AS Please think about this is the Tank Hunter Variant (like IL-2) why should it has a lower AS should be AS +3 400 points/model is silly compared with the drone carrier the tank hunter variant is only slightly better armed should be 150/model or 200/model Please reactivate the Tau vektor knights! Just replace the "flyer kit" with a jump pack similar to the eldar reverants one And 1 questions: Am I right? If the Manta/Moray failes its fixed shield save, the shot will hit the hull even with more activated shields? That is worse than the eldar holofields this means you can shoot down a manta with the first shot? Should be: if fails a fixed save the Manta/Moray will loose one shield if it failes 2 it will loose 2 i.g. The manta is hit by 7 shots and failes 2, it will only loose 2 shields best regards |
Author: | ulric [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
sorry for the Topic but I cant edit it? |
Author: | Pettan [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Some comments about suggestions. Quote: Battlesuits cost: I think 500 for the Boardsides is to high you changed from 4.1 to 5.0: TH +3 >>>TH +4 Points 350>>>500 thats to much I think 400 will do it I loose every battle, I fought with the Tau, half of my boardsides in Turn 1 I agree with this. I also feel that 4+ save should be 3+. If they are tank hunters they should be able to take a hit. Maybe 450 and a 3+ save is better. Quote: Tau Command units For every Co. which is lead by a battlesuit command unit , I raised the cost up to 50 points thats still cheap Okay, but leave the Broadside Battlesuit Team cost then since you want them to be cheaper. Quote: Tigershark: The railgun variant is to expensive and has a low AS Please think about this is the Tank Hunter Variant (like IL-2) why should it has a lower AS should be AS +3 400 points/model is silly compared with the drone carrier the tank hunter variant is only slightly better armed should be 150/model or 200/model I agree with the save that should be 3+. About the cost. You have to consider that the penetrating ability is very powerful and should cost accordingly. Quote: And 1 questions: Am I right? If the Manta/Moray failes its fixed shield save, the shot will hit the hull even with more activated shields? That is worse than the eldar holofields this means you can shoot down a manta with the first shot? Should be: if fails a fixed save the Manta/Moray will loose one shield if it failes 2 it will loose 2 i.g. The manta is hit by 7 shots and failes 2, it will only loose 2 shields I agree that they suck. Id rather have the orc shields. But.. We should include Juffo-Wup in this thread. I believe that the Tau list is "his baby". Ask him to answer and comment. /P |
Author: | ulric [ Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:06 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Thanks for your comments Quote: Juffo-Wup So please help us ![]() Quote: You have to consider that the penetrating ability is very powerful and should cost accordingly. But not that much, even with the super heavy vehicle damage table. Most of your shots target non-super-heavy , pretoreans/titan models! And compared to the drone carrier, which is 300 points, inclusive 4 gun drones which are 150 points worth it should cost 200 |
Author: | zap123 [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Juffo-Wup and I playtested the revised Tau list pretty heavily.  However, he has a new bub and other committments so doesn't play NE at the moment....at least not without a lot of goading and poking  ![]() I'm happy to look at ideas for the Tau if there's general agreement.  Despite all the games we played I'm still not certain we have everything perfect.  Broadsides could certainly come down a shade or two in cost for one.  I think we kept the Crissis suits low as a signature Tau unit that was their "really good value for the points" unit.  Every army should have a signature unit  ![]() The one thing that can be abusive with the Tau is their flyers.  I'm particularly cautious about flyers with long range shooting ability, as coupled with high altitude they can be nearly invulnerable.  The AX-1-0 has massive firepower with long range so will be very expensive.  It is probably most comparable with a Phoenix Bomber that has less 75cm shots and still costs 300 points.  Playtesting also showed it very often earned it's points back (it shredded many SHTs, Praetorians and the odd Warlord titan in its day).  I think if there is any argument to be made then perhaps the Drone Carrier should increase a little. We tried to offset the risk of abusive flyer armies with the Tau to some degree by limiting the effectiveness of the AA (a little) and giving their flyers low CAF.  Despite this, it is still easy to make a Tau army list that is extremely difficult to fight against if you don't know what is coming.  The smart Tau player can also surprise you sometimes by taking no flyers too. Deflector shields is the Tau thing so I'm fairly loath to change it.  I acknowledge it's not the best defense, but this was what was developed by the original writers.  I find Tau landing craft are more vulnerable to CC anyway. |
Author: | ulric [ Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Quote: Crissis suits low as a signature Tau unit that was their "really good value for the points" unit This should be no problem Quote: The one thing that can be abusive with the Tau is their flyers. I'm particularly cautious about flyers with long range shooting ability, as coupled with high altitude they can be nearly invulnerable. The AX-1-0 has massive firepower with long range so will be very expensive. It is probably most comparable with a Phoenix Bomber that has less 75cm shots and still costs 300 points. Playtesting also showed it very often earned it's points back (it shredded many SHTs, Praetorians and the odd Warlord titan in its day). I think if there is any argument to be made then perhaps the Drone Carrier should increase a little. The AX-1-0 has 2x/+4/-3/Pen.+3 and 2 aa missiles The drone carrier has 4x/+4/-2 and 1 aa missile and carries a detachment gun drones 150 points worth I would never use an AX-1-0 if its 100 points more expensive (without drones 250 points) IMO the phoenix is expensive too. Quote: it shredded many SHTs, Praetorians and the odd Warlord titan in its day You dont have that nice targets all the time ![]() Quote: We tried to offset the risk of abusive flyer armies with the Tau to some degree by limiting the effectiveness of the AA (a little) and giving their flyers low CAF. Despite this, it is still easy to make a Tau army list that is extremely difficult to fight against if you don't know what is coming. The smart Tau player can also surprise you sometimes by taking no flyers too. All armies have a good airforce now I think this problem could show up nearly on every army Quote: Deflector shields is the Tau thing so I'm fairly loath to change it. I acknowledge it's not the best defense, but this was what was developed by the original writers. I find Tau landing craft are more vulnerable to CC anyway. This means I can loose my 1350 point manta cadre to the first shot fired? In the rules is written that the Tau shield technology is the most advanced one but it has both penalties, the limited number of shields and the possibility to take a hit with every shot. That cant be right if a shield fails its save the next shield should get a chance to deflect the shot What do you think about the railguns? That would reactivate the nice to hit +3(which was killed on 4.1.) and would reduce the mighty power of penetrating in one go best regards ulric |
Author: | zap123 [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
I like the railgun idea. Will have to look at it in a bit more detail and you'd probably need to repoint some things. On Monday when I can look at this thread and the book together I'll summarise proposed changes here and send to Juffo to have a look at too. |
Author: | ulric [ Sat Feb 20, 2010 2:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Cool thanks Zap |
Author: | ulric [ Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Quote: Tau. Hammerhead with twin linked plasma cannon 20cm/As+3/CAF+2 TL PlasmaC. AD.,4x TH.+4 TS:-1 Range 50cm Hammerheadwith twin linked Burst Cannons 20cm/As+3/CAF+2 Tl BurstC. AD.6x TH.+5 TS.-1 Range 50cm or AD.6x TH. +4 TS.+0 Range 50cm both variants with missile pods Did anyone thought about this 2 variants since I have real forgeworld minis of these ![]() I see no problem with them I am happy about every comment ect. ulric |
Author: | zap123 [ Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
I think these look fine. |
Author: | ulric [ Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
I already used them in 2 battles and there is nothing too powerfull on them |
Author: | Juffo-Wup [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Hey all.  I've been very, very quiet for a while now due to the reasons zap mentioned.  I've gotten a little bit of my time back now and am looking at getting epic-active again. Quote: Before the Tau codex  shows up, I have some suggestions about Tau stats and point costs Here is my proposal about Tau rail guns: Light Rail gun: Range 75cm TH +3 TS -1 Pen +1..............Units: Bettlesuits Medium Rail gun: Range 75cm TH+3 TS-2 Pen +2...........Units: Hammerheads,Tigersharks,Vektor Knights Heavy Rail gun: Range 100cm TH +3 TS -3 Pen +3...........Units: Manta/Moray, Swordfish Super Heavy Tanks Not a fan of the "Light" railgun.  There is absolutely no precedent for this is 40K and while the idea is cool and all, the Battlesuits already have their variants.  If you're talking about the ones on the Broadsides, they are the exact same guns as on the hammerheads and really shouldn't be any different at all IMO (just without the template shot).  If you are thinking about a Railrifle for the Crisis suits, perhaps we can look at that but I prefer keeping the Crisis suits as they are as there are so many potential fitouts for the Crisis suits that it can get very confusing very fast in Epic scale. Quote: Battlesuits cost: I think 500 for the Boardsides is to high you changed from 4.1 to 5.0: TH +3 >>>TH +4 Points 350>>>500 thats to much I think 400 will do it I loose every battle, I fought with the Tau, half of my boardsides in Turn 1 Fair point but in the battles I have played with them, 500pts seemed about right. Quote: Crisissuites: 250 points is to low I think 300/units is better Every army needs a great-value unit and the Crisis suits are that unit for the Tau.  If you are playing a pure tau force without Kroot, you're gonna have a very, very hard time capturing objectives and the Crisis suits with their hit-and-run ability allow you to do just that.  They are essential to the Tau battleplan IMO and as a result are worth giving a bit of a discount to. Quote: Tau Command units For every Co. which is lead by a battlesuit command unit , I raised the cost up to 50 points thats still cheap I think they need to stay the same for the same reasons as above. Quote: Tigershark: The railgun variant is to expensive and has a low AS Please think about this is the Tank Hunter Variant (like IL-2) why should it has a lower AS should be AS +3 400 points/model is silly compared with the drone carrier the tank hunter variant is only slightly better armed should be 150/model or 200/model As zap sait, flyers with powerful, long-range guns are very, very powerful on the table.  They can be virtually impossible to kill at times.  I have found that the Railcannon Tigershark is well worth its points cost.  Hell, I take two. Quote: Please reactivate the Tau vektor knights! Just replace the "flyer kit" with a jump pack similar to the eldar reverants one They were taken out of the main book deliberately as the Tau do not build Knight or Titan-sized suits.  This is mentioned in the fluff countless times.  They prefer to re-task existing units and for that scale, they use spacecraft.  The Vector Suits are still in the options book if you like using them.  And I believe I did remove the flight pack and replaced it with a jump one. Quote: And 1 questions: Am I right? If the Manta/Moray failes its fixed shield save, the shot will hit the hull even with more activated shields? That is worse than the eldar holofields this means you can shoot down a manta with the first shot? Should be: if fails a fixed save the Manta/Moray will loose one shield if it failes 2 it will loose 2 i.g. The manta is hit by 7 shots and failes 2, it will only loose 2 shields Yes.  The Deflector Shields.  I've never really been happy with them.  I am very tempted to scrap the whole idea of them and just give any Tau unit that has Deflector currently a fixed save.  In the fluff, Tau shields DO NOT opperate like Ork r Imperial shields.  They don't absorb incoming fire.  They deflect it away from the unit.  As a such I am tempted to simply give Deflector Shielded units a Fixed 2+ or 3+ save to represent the shield and if the shield generators are damaged, they lose the shield save.  No keeping track of how many shields you have. I am also not happy with how the Markerlights work.  I am looking at how to re-visit them and make them more useful. Once my new Man-Cave is online (soon now, very soon) I'm going to have to get zap and Oz over again and give the Tau another good outing. |
Author: | zap123 [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:23 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Here's my summary (and what I sent to JW too): - Broadsides - maybe 400 for the detachment ( and not actually discussed) probably a concurrent small reduction in the Hunter and Battlesuit Cadre costs - I think this is worth looking at. The Broadsides are fantastic, but 125 points a stand is a lot. - The Railgun thing - I don't know enough to have any opinion. It would be a way to make some units a bit cheaper, but if as JW says if it is not a reflection of the (40K) facts then I'm happy to leave it. - Flyers - I'm pretty comfortable that these are balanced and correctly costed already. - Vektors - yeah, right ![]() - Couple of new Hammerhead variants to reflect available FW models - these look ok to me. - Markerlights - seemed to be some agreement to have MLs extended to 75cm and ignore cover for existing units with them. Seems a simple change that would also probably be quite a useful boost in their ability without having to make big changes. - Deflectors - people don't like 'em. I'm not sure I agree with the hoohaa though. They are in effect just a slightly fluffier, better holofield with exactly the same net result for the most part. Maybe just increase the number so it is less likely a unit will burn through all its deflectors too quickly. |
Author: | ulric [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:51 am ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Quote: If you are thinking about a Railrifle for the Crisis suits No just for the boardsides I am not reading any fluff  Quote: Fair point but in the battles I have played with them, 500pts seemed about right. Cant agree here I did different experience 500 is to high 2 units of crisis suits are better Quote: If you are playing a pure tau force without Kroot, you're gonna have a very, very hard time capturing objectives and the Crisis suits with their hit-and-run ability allow you to do just that. Oh yes  ![]() Quote: Every army needs a great-value unit and the Crisis suits are that unit for the Tau Okay sounds fair but try to explain a tau commander why a crisissuit  with railguns and without jumppacks takes double time/resources to produce ![]() Quote: I think they need to stay the same for the same reasons as above. Sounds fair again Quote: As zap sait, flyers with powerful, long-range guns are very, very powerful on the table.  They can be virtually impossible to kill at times.  I have found that the Railcannon Tigershark is well worth its points cost.  Hell, I take two. Okay we have completely different positions here Quote: The Vector Suits are still in the options book if you like using them.  And I believe I did remove the flight pack and replaced it with a jump one. I will do  ![]() Quote: Yes.  The Deflector Shields.  I've never really been happy with them.  I am very tempted to scrap the whole idea of them and just give any Tau unit that has Deflector currently a fixed save.  In the fluff, Tau shields DO NOT opperate like Ork r Imperial shields.  They don't absorb incoming fire.  They deflect it away from the unit.  As a such I am tempted to simply give Deflector Shielded units a Fixed 2+ or 3+ save to represent the shield and if the shield generators are damaged, they lose the shield save.  No keeping track of how many shields you have. The manta is the only Titan/pretorean unit the tau have maybe should be  a bit cheaper then Quote: I am also not happy with how the Markerlights work.  I am looking at how to re-visit them and make them more useful. That would be cool I lighted only 2-3 targets up in 3 battles Quote: The Broadsides are fantastic, but 125 points a stand is a lot. ![]() Quote: but if as JW says if it is not a reflection of the (40K) facts then I'm happy to leave it. Okay if the fluff tells us Quote: Flyers - I'm pretty comfortable that these are balanced and correctly costed already. somebody help me please ![]() Quote:  Vektors - yeah, right Fluff again uhm Quote: Couple of new Hammerhead variants to reflect available FW models - these look ok to me Hell yeah Did we/you finished the rules for the AX-2 Tigershark? |
Author: | Malleus [ Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Some Tau suggestions to the eldar reverants one |
Having nothing to base this on I still think railguns should have more - to save. they are supposed to be realy realy destructive id say battlesuits -2 hammerheads -3 and heavy rails -4, but thats purely for fluff, have never played with or against them |
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