Hi,

here is my first attempt to build the Elysian NetEpic codex list. Informations about Elysians for this list come from this pdf (alternative link here) where I tried to catch the way they are meant to be built and played. Please read this file before commenting this list, it explains some of my choices. 28mm Elysian minis are available in ForgeWorld Catalog.

More web sources about Elysians: WH40K Lexicanum and Wikia.

Current version download: DOWNLOAD LINK for NetEpic Elysian Army List 1.1

Additions: Tauros Assault vehicles

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Epic40k.fr Techpriest

I finally went on FW website and discovered few things that may be added:

- Elysian Sentinels are able to be transported in valkyries
- Elysian Heavy Infantry mostly use some rocket launchers, it could be possible to create an Elysian heavy infantry company and profile that would replace the standard heavy infantry for this list.

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Epic40k.fr Techpriest

It'll take me a while to get through this little lot as my head is killing me just now (migraine) so I'll post a reply in the morning. Thanks for posting so soon.

EDIT: Ah, damn. The pdf link doesn't work for me.  

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I can't see the PDF either.

My initial comments:

- The new units largely looks like what I would expect to see in an Elysian Codex.
- I don't think I agree with adding Commissars directly to the company and including them in break totals.  Having 2 is fine, i'd just leave them "extra" like the current IG.
- All the new units look ok to me, pending points of course  
- I'm not sure I agree with the Authorised Standard Cards list much though.  I would have thought most of those would be on the "may not take" list.  Light Artillery, Sky Wolf and any Flyer is fine, but the others?

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Thanks Scream for all your work here. Hopefully any comments I make will be useful to your efforts.

I know I haven't read the pdf yet but iIf you don't mind I would like to make an observation...

Elysian Airborn Company:
> Contents: 3*Elysian Airborn Platoon (contains 3 Valkyries + 6 Elysian Assault Troops stands each, 1 is a SQH)
          2*CHQ + 1 Valkyrie
          2* Commissars + 1 Valkyrie

> Moral:
> Break Point: 17
> Victory Points:
> Cost:

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First of all, thanks for your replies

@Zap & Warhead: I added an alternative link for the pdf. Sorry, but share.acrobat.com is out of order at the moment.

@Zap:

- for the commissars, my fault, I forgot that they did not count in the company BP. Will be corrected.

- for the others companies:
> Tactical Infantry Company
> Heavy Infantry Company maybe replace by an Elysian heavy company (shorter range, better TSM something like 50cm/2/5+/-2)
> Storm Trooper Company: Elysian are used to field StormTroopers
> For the Cavalry, I was not sure but I had the feeling that they are fast and may reach the spirit of Elysian. It won't hurt me to remove access to all standard cavalry company.
> Any superheavy is an error! They definitely should not be able to take them
> For the Scorpion AA gun, I considered that it could be the same size as a tarentula and should be deployed by Elysian to protect the air. Else they do not have access to any AA gun.
> For special cards, it could be normal they can take a major or colonel or astropath or..., couldn't it ? May the major and Colonel get some transport valkyries ?

@Warhead:
> An Elysian attack plan always starts with the 2 first phases:
1) drop troops
2) Valkyries land and 2nd wave troops disembark
The idea of a company with valkyries come from an "old" company (NetEpic V5.0) that was removed in the last IG codex version. This company will be quite expensive but will represent the 2nd wave. I even think this company could be a "must be taken company". In NE 5.0, this company consisted of 30+2 tactical stands and 15+1 valkyries and costed 1300 points with a 24BP. It could be interesting that the 2nd wave company can only take air support (flyers of units in valkyries). I think it would be normal that valkyries and embarked troops should not be bound to unit coherency as if they were separate transports and troops.

> I agree, we could give the drop troops a -1 to be hit while deep striking, they are smaller than drop pods or Imperial dropship. Will be modified. But note, Elysian don't have jump packs, they just have a "Grav-Chute" in the back, it's a 40K parachute.


> Cyclops are good but they are suicide small tanks and when they attack, they explode (may need a special rule to make them explode at any point during movement ?) and count for detachment BP. It's the anti-tank/anti-titan unit. Maybe I could adjust to something different to make this small tank an anti-infantry role ?

Edit:In Imperial Armour Vol 4 - The Anphelion Project, it appears that Cyclops and Sentinels may deep strike ? For Cyclops, I'm not that hot but for sentinels, it could be interesting, couldn't it ? Off course, it would create a new detachement (like for dropped tarentulas).
Edit #2: In Imperial Armour Vol3 - The Taros Campain, sentinel can mount heavy support. Could it be interesting to create such sentinel profils (like Land Speeder Tornado but with Sentinel = Sentinel Tornado, same weapons than the LS but on a Sentinel with the same number in a detachment than for LS ?)

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Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Grav-Chute's?.. ok got it.  I bow to your knowledge on the Elysian Airborne Company. I was just thinking of my dwindling money as I'd have to buy at least another 2+ packs from Specialist Games so that at the very least I would have 12 Valkyrie.    I thought I made a good argument but forgot these aren't Grav-Chute troops they are normal ground ponders and so must have air transport or what's the point of an Elysian list. My bad.

I would do away with the Cavalry too but replace it with a company of Land Speeders. Does that sound like it would fit the Elysian list better?

Damn, Zaps right about the authorised standard cards I totally missed that. Good catch.

Dropping Sentinels?.. I dunno' it sounds a bit weird. I would be happy to have them transported in Valkyrie but Deep Strike!.. Not so thrilled with the prospect of a highly mobile walker darting about my back line on the first turn.

I could live with the Cyclops at the right price so long as when they are used (in effect destroyed) the VP still goes to the enemy. That way the Elysian player has to pick worth while targets to make the VP trade pay off. Interesting concept as the Germans (and many others) in WWII tried this type of device (Goliath IIRC). If you intend on dropping these be careful you don't make a guided bomb. Perhaps they can only target units on the next turn after landing otherwise, ouch!

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Preface:  cool looking concept army - really like it so far.  All comments can be ignored if you like    

I think Warhead might be right about the Airborne company.  I remember the discussion about them when they were in the V5.0 list.  One of the main problems is the Valks have to stick around with the Grunts (transports have to maintain coherency).  So once they land they stay landed.  This more than anything else argues for a separate Airborne company (the footsloggers) and Valkyrie Transport company.

- Heavy:  Yup, I'd give them their own dedicated Heavy company sized to fit in a Valkyrie Transport Company.  Perhaps mixed in with the Airborne?  Maybe modelled on the PDF Rocket troops but with a 50cm range (light tube fired rockets).
- Storm Troopers.  Yup ignore me!
- I like WHs idea of the Land Speeder company instead of cavalry.
- Scorpion AA is fine.  Airdropped even  
- I think most of the Specials would be fine with Rhinos replaced by Grav Chutes or Valks.  Maybe a special rule that allows you to pack in one (infantry stand sized) special with a company transported by Valyries?

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Thanks for your comments WarHead and Zap

@Zap: the old Airborne company style has been dropped, replaced by 2 different companies.
@WH: I do not remember where you firstly put your light mortar stats, at the moment, I created mine

@Zap & WH : about the Land Speeder Company
This is quite a problem for me: I ate this company. Not because it's bad but because I do not understand where an IG LS idea come from. I searched on internet and apparently, the IG LS was in the first 40K edition and has been dropped since 2nd edition. I never see any IG LS. I would slighty prefer creating an Elysian Sentinel Company (2 Elysian Sentinels detachment + 1 Elysian Support Sentinel detachment) even if Sentinels may be restricted in numbers ( = available in separate detachments) than adding a LS Company  

Question: could the Elysian Sentinels get the "infiltrate" ability ? This could be an interesting solution to represent the fact that they could be dropped ? This would increase their cost of 50 points I think as they could start 50cm away from their deployment area.


So, what's new:

- After discovering new informations about Elysians, I created an Elysian Heavy Company, they have heavy Bolters and a 50cm range. They loose 25cm in range but gain a 6+ armor save. This is due to a better than average armor (see the wh40Klexicanum link).

- I created a small Valkyrie squadron with 3 valkyries, this will allow to transport small detachments. Elysian Regimental and Battalion Special Cards have been created to add some air transport.

- I placed the Drop Troops detachment size at 10 stands, is-it to much ? On another side, I could put a "Unique" to the drop troops company. With 5 detachments, a total of 80 stands (excluding the 2 CHQ and 2 commissars) could be dropped during 1st turn but it would cost a total of 2000 points...

- I tried to give a cost to the different units. This is a first test, I'm not sure at all about it because:
1°) I don't know the impact and cost of giving an extra commissar
2°) Does the lack of heavy/armor support could compensate better morale than standard IG troops ?
3°) Is the impact of the Drop Troops well costed ? As they deep strike, they will be on advance order during first turn, I'm sure a lot of CC armies can easily handle this (Chaos/Nids...)

Last Note: Exodus War Guild Assaut minis would do some nice drop troops

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Epic40k.fr Techpriest

I know what you mean about the Land Speeders. I never liked the Guard having these, ever. Perhaps Land Speeder is the wrong word also as they are one man flying bikes in the 40K mini (I have one). I would be cool with a Infiltrating Recon Sentinel. Max Infiltrate would be it's basic 25cm move just like Hell Knights.

Paratroops in WWII had various different items or different quantities of gear that their ground pounding brothers didn't. (More SMG's per squad etc) The Light Mortar difference can be excused and is of no great import. DWWFY. If you want the stats I'll gladly post them though.

If I can again lean even more heavily on WWII Paratrooper similarities... I imagine the morale of the Elysian's is 3+ mainly due to Regimental pride and through intensive training in independent action and survival. These are Elite troops, picked from the best and highly trained professional soldiers who know they will need to fight on to survive and have been trained to do just that. It's not the equipment that makes them tough, it's the lack of it IMO

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I created a file to make things easier to read, get it here: Elysian version 0.1.

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Actually, I have a 40K IG Land Speeder around here somewhere.  IIRC they got it first and the Marines inherited it....though that was a LOOONG time ago so I might have that back to front.  There is a pic of an IG speeder in the Compendium (P93) and it is the exact version used in Epic, while the Marine version had Melta-Guns instead of the HPG and Hvy Bolter!  However, it is your list so if you don't like, dont use .

Looking at the PDF by itself:

- I'm not sure why the Drop Troops should get the -1 to hit protection.
- It's hard to cost them....but 750 feels like it's probably a bit light...particularly with the -1 above.  Still, playtesting will decide I guess.  
- So is the restriction I think.  1 per 2000 at least.
- 2 Valkyrie sizes is clever.
- Looks pretty cool really.

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Firstly, thanks for the feedback

- For the -1 to be hit, maybe because it's quite harder to hit a human falling from the sky than on a drop pod  ;) ? But I fully understand your position and here are 2 propositions:

1) Reduce the size of Drop Troops stands (6 per detachment instead of 10) and give them the -1 to be hit (except for AA)
2) Keep the size at 10 per detachment and remove the -1 to be hit

While I'm writing this lines, I'm thinking that players usually do not field too many AA guns (usually 2 in 5000-6000 points battle). When facing an Elysian army, you can be sure to have 10-20 fliers in the sky (vulture company, valkyrie company & so on...) so AA guns will have a hard job. On my side, I would say the second solution may be better (10 stands per detachment and no -1 to be hit).

- OK for 1 Drop Troops company per 2000 points. Another solution/addition could be to make this company "must be taken & Unique".

Did you notice that valkyries company are now Special Cards ? I'll add a special rule to make things clear about coherency (Valkyries and troops are separate units even if troops start in the valkyries).

About Drop Troops detachment cost (250), is a first evaluation. Without the deep strike, it would be 200. I hesitated to increase it to 275 or 300. I dislike 275 points, 300 points could be OK if we give the ability "Elite" to Drop Troops and keep the 6+ armor save.


Questions:

- About the valkyries companies, I have a problem: how to transport the 2 comissars ? I have not given them a valkyrie transport, a solution would be to give 2 Valkyries CHQ for Valkyries companies and increase the cost of 50 points.
- For the Commissars VP, do they give 1 VP when 2 are killed or 1VP when 1 is killed ?
- Is it OK for the Storm Troopers rhinos ? I kept the standard company card and they have rhinos transports.
- What about the support sentinel & sentinel company, do you feel it's interesting for Elysians ?
- I do not know for special characters if we could give them a valkyrie transport in replacement of their standard rhino (this would increase their cost of 25 or 50 points). In this case, the transport coherency would have to be maintained.
- Could the Confessor/Inquisitor be added to the Drop Troops ?
- Should I drop the 6+ armor save except for Drop Troops ?
- Should I drop the Adeptus Mechanicus special card ?
- Should I create a Commissar special card ?

Arg...so many questions  

Edit: I tried to create a sample 5000 points Elysian army with the drop troops company @ 900 points, here it is:

> First wave:
- Company card: Drop Troops company: 900 points
- Support card: Dropped Tarantulas: 175 points
Total: 1075

> Second wave:
- Company Card: Assault company: 300 points
- Special Card: Small Airborne: 500 points (with the extra CHQ valkyrie (at 50 points) to transport the 2 commissars)
- Support Card: Sentinel detachment: 150 points
- Support Card: Elysian Veterans: 200 points
Total: 1150

> Aerial support: SkyWolf Company: 750 points
Total: 750

> Heavy Support: Heavy Company: 600 points
- Special Card: Battalion Command (Major special character): 250
- Support Card: Scorpion detachment: 100 points
- Support Card: Tarentula detachment: 150 points
- Support Card: 1 Mortar detachment: 100 points
- Support Card: 1 Infantry battery: 75 points
Total: 1275

> StormTroopers Company: 700 points:
- Special Card: Callidus Assassin: 50 points
Total: 750 points

Total: 5000 points

Edit: an extra question about Drop Troops: how would you (like) to use them ? Deep strike may seems to be a great advantage but when facing for example a good CC army, they may become a disadvantage. As the turn they arrive they take an advance order, armies like chaos or nids will be happy to get some fresh meat close to them Armies with good calvary/assault infantry will easily be able to break/destroy the whole company in first turn. Let's imagine Elysian facing Nids/Chaos, would they get a chance with their +1 CAF ? They are not as good as some assault marines exiting from their pods or terminators that teleport. Drop Troops have the number advantage but how many of them will pass the 1st turn ? This would really need to be playtested to know how they act on battlefield and I won't be able to test this before a loooong time.

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Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Overall I like it. I have no idea about costing, it's not my strong point. I like making things cheaper so we can all get more stuff. Not very good when trying to balance a game.

A few thoughts...

The 25cm Lasrifles. Can you increase this to 35cm as that would then suggest a Lascarbine instead of Laspistol.

I like the -1 to hit for Grav-chute troops. Anything on First Fire can target these units so a -1 to hit isn't such a big ask. The other option with drop Pods may be to put two stands in each pod making five pods per platoon and keeping the -1 to hit. Down to preference though.

I like the Sentinels. The Support Sentinel Barrage is a little odd, they may be very handy. I have done something similar with Robots with Rocket Pods that can act as Artillery. However, most artillery doesn't move much during a battle.

The Robot comment gave me a thought. How about Drop Robots with heavy weapons too?

I think the Commissar VP should be 1VP per Commissar.

The Storm Troopers Rhino's. Do the Elysians have access to some of the heavy Landers of the Imperial Navy? This could be an easy explanation in the fluff. I don't have a problem with it. ...I take it Elysians can ally with other IG units. Imperial Titan Lander? Elysians are dropped to secure the zone and Titans are dropped or landed. Wasn't there a Dropped Titan in a recent Horus Heresy Book on Istvan or somewhere?

Dropped troops in a hot contested zone without some sort of element of surprise (Initiative Mod?) would probably (rightly) end up with the Dropped Troops being badly mauled. It would be unlikely the Elysians would be used in such a hot zone, doesn't make sense but I'm sure the GW fluff I haven't read says otherwise. So why not restrict the battle size. Say 4000 point armies on both sides maximum. That way you have lots of troops (points willing) and he has less chance to take every heavy weapon in his army list.

BTW I have some of the EW Guild assault troops you mention and oh yes they would make excellent Elysians.

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- Yes, I did note the seperate Flyer transport co as Specials.  It is a good move I think.

- Unlike Warhead, I don't really like the -1 as these guys will be coming down first turn and generally you have very few units on First Fire 1st turn, so making them even harder to shoot will be harsh.  I'd keep the big company, take away the -1, give them Elite and make them 300 per detachment.  If we compare Assaults in Mycetic Spores they'd come out at 300 for 10, so we're close at that cost I think....maybe 325 really, but start at 300 and see how they play.  Core company should be a little cheap anyway  

- Commissars in Valkyries sounds cool to me.

- I think the Storm Troopers fit well.  Perhaps they got airlifted inside their Rhinos and "fast cargo dropped".

- I like any reason to use more Sentinels.  Love them!

- Inquisitor could Deep Strike (he can wear Terminator armour after all);6+ armour really just adds a bit of flavour...it's effect on the game will be minimal; Mechanicus could have its' own Valkyrie and land where the most repairs are needed; I think giving Commissars a Valk for 50 points is fine either embedded in the company or as seperate Special cards.

- How to use:  Yes, the compulsory movement means that they will probably get counter-charged if you go really deep.  It does mean that you should control or contest all or most objectives turn 1.  Go deep if they are vulnerable (unguarded arty etc) or to just really disrupt their plans while Wave 2 consolidates objectives and field position.  Go shallow if you think it is a trap and just control most of the objectives....6 would be a good target I think.  It is a big company so I think you can be agressive with it...it is unlikely to be broken turn 1, and if it is, the rest of your army should be untouched.

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