Tactical Command
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Last time Warp/Vortex
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17406		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Hi-minded,

I know that this topic is old but it is a never ending story and always confuses me: Warp and Vortex.

according to my interpretation, the rocket will ignore all types of shields, even fields. fields (whether "power" or "holo" fields) are component of the above notion shields.

is proof, for example, the following excerpts to mekboy gargant: "... As with other Orc shields the Kustom Force Field ...". It is therefore obvious that no distinction is made between any kind of shield, because there are all shields and sometimes called power field or holo field and so on....


if so, protects against these rockets nothing but a "psychic save" (but not a "psychic save" with shields). nothing else, right?
Author:  eysi [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....71]http << Holo Field
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....;st=20; << Kustom Force Field
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 21:38 )

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....71]http << Holo Field

If I follow the link, I find the question:

"does the warp missile bypass the holo field or the titanium quietly gets its saves?"

and responding to:

"The Holofield still gives a save against a warp missile."

to hear everything quite well, but how do you take the answer? I find nothing in the rules that holo fields protect against a warp or vortex missile.

As I said, the crucial question remains whether the notion "shields" is a generic term for all types of shields and fields or not? I have called an example in which the notion "shields" and "fields" mean the same.
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 21:38 )

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....71]http << Holo Field

one more example: (eldar rule book)
Wraithbone Shield: The Wraithbone shield has been psychically imbued with a protective field by an Exodite Visionary.

what then, is it now a shield or a field? I think that the inventors of "epic" never differentiated between fields and shields. Prove to be found repeatedly in various army books
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 21:38 )

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....71]http << Holo Field

here it is even directly with each other that a holo-field belongs to the genus of the shields ...
Author:  eysi [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
The Ork codex also listed "steam" as shield.
Guess that's not really a proof of any kind.

// from zap
"Yes it is logical by the rules...."A Holo-field grants a fixed save against all incoming shots. .  This save is ineffective against template weapons...."

A Warp Missile is an incoming weapon and does not use a template.....so you get a save from the Holo-field.  Also remember the Warp Missile ignores shields.....not fields.

The only Eldar Titan with a Psychic save is the Warlock (for fluff-obvious reasons) so I don't know where the extra psy save you are talking about comes from???"
Author:  ulric [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
against a warp missile you get a save with a holofield because
the holofield affects targeting like any other weapoms(except templates) the warp missile can bypass it without hitting the titan
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 22:31 )


that's all interpretation. I have illustrated with several examples that "fields" understood the above "shields". The rules of the warp and vortex missile clearly that "shields" are ignored.
Author:  darkangel [ Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (ulric @ Dec. 13 2009, 22:31 )

the warp missile can bypass it without hitting the titan

where did you find this in the rules?
Author:  darkangel [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:01 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 22:31 )

The Ork codex also listed "steam" as shield.
Guess that's not really a proof of any kind.

if one is very accurately, then the warp missile would not even get through the "cloud", because this is indeed not "shields" (in the describtion of the gargant). and we all agree that a warp missile will pass through this cloud, right?

one more good example that the warp missile really will be ignorerd by any type of "shield"
Author:  ulric [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:02 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
its my way to interpret the rules but to me it sounds locical
the warp missile materialize inside the target thats why it ignores them
but with holofields the warp missile don´t really know its destination because it does not "see" the target

my english is not good enought for my piont of view :laugh:
Author:  darkangel [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (ulric @ Dec. 13 2009, 23:02 )

the warp missile materialize inside the target thats why it ignores them
but with holofields the warp missile don´t really know its destination because it does not "see" the target

my english is not good at all too. so let us talk german? :p

I understand your logical view, but since I discussed here that there is no logical sense, that you do not get a "to-hit" modifier by shooting drop pods, I have lost the believe in logical sense.

logical:
a fast falling object comes down and you get no "to-hit" modifier? take a coke throw it in the air and try to ahoot at while falling? as easy as the coke motionless on the ground? I do not think so at all. logical? NEVER! So logical can not be part of discussions here.

We have to face the rules. and i made a lot of examples that shields are a generic term for all kind of shields!
Author:  Biel el'Jonson [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: 

NetEpic gold rulebook p.43 : "Holo-fields: These shields disrupt targeting systems and distort the image of the titan."

Quote: 

Adeptus Mechanicus NetEpic army book p.12 : "Warp Missile [...] All shields are ignored, and buildings, superheavies and smaller units are destroyed with no save."

I agree with DarkAngel, if you don't interpret the rules, you can't use holo-field to make a save roll against warp missile.
Author:  eysi [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
i think zap gave us the answer already.
the difference between shields and fields is distracting, i give you that.
but let us face the facts:

Warp missile:
ignores shields, no barrage, LOS required.

Holo field:
grants a fixed save against all incoming shots according to the orders it has.
This save is ineffective against template weapons, as well as psychic attacks that do
not require line of sight

The whole discussion about this topic is built upon the fact, that the holo field is listed in the "shield" space in the titan table. nowhere else is the holo field been called a shield. And it seems quite obvious that all titan use the same "preset" and therefore all things protecting them are called "shields" (psychic saves excluded).

additional question:
the warp missile hits automatically against titans - what would happen if a charging steam gargant would be targeted?
my guess would be that an automatic hit is 1+ therefore it would hit on 3+?
Author:  darkangel [ Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Last time Warp/Vortex
Quote: (eysi @ Dec. 13 2009, 23:24 )

Holo field:
grants a fixed save against all incoming shots according to the orders it has.
This save is ineffective against template weapons, as well as psychic attacks that do
not require line of sight

no, look what biel el`jonson find in the gold version: "NetEpic gold rulebook p.43 : "Holo-fields: These shields disrupt targeting systems and distort the image of the titan."

so i was right, that "shields" is a generic term of all kind of shields. so the warp missle is back in game!
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