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Alternate Vampire rules
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16169		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ulric [ Fri Jul 17, 2009 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Hey guys due to the fact that the Vampires is that huge and a troop transporter
I think it should be a super heavy
better armoured
and better armed

some years ago I lost all my epic rules rule book, epic battles,codex titanicus ect.
and now nothing about netepic
so I create my own rules for the vampire(for the phönix and for the new nightwing model)
I wanted to andjust the rules to the model and what it looks like

so here is what cames out:

Variant1:

move 60cm(because of nightwing 100, phönix 80/75)
save: 1+ or 2 all round
cav +4
weapons: 2x lasc. 75cm +4 -2(because it has 2 of them)
                 4x shuriken 25cm +5 -0
                 3x one-shoot missles 100cm +3 -2

transports 4stands
super heavy
cost 300/model because the phönix is too expensive

variant 2:

transports 6 stands
everything the same but no one shoot missles

and add a new unit the vampire raider which is a super heavy ground attack aircraft
the same as variant1
but no transport

it would be great if would comment these

I`am thinking about creating
a counterpart to the sm medic/techmarine
for:
eldar, orks ect..
Author:  Warhead [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Sure, there's nothing wrong with giving it a try in your games and I can only agree with you about the model size being overly large but I'm doubtful if a better air transport is needed for the Eldar in Epic. As for variants, yeah variants look cool but really not that big a feature in the Eldar, they specialise their units and have other units to specifically do the jobs your trying to make variations for.

My one suggestion is to look again at the weapons you have chosen and see if you can tone it down, as is it seems too powerful IMO. Zap (Zap123) had been looking at Point Defence and Interception for Flyers, not sure if it came to a working solution or a standstill but have a look, it's here somewhere. The six troop transport would be handy for guardian stands though.

I`am thinking about creating
a counterpart to the sm medic/techmarine
for:
eldar, orks ect..

Eldar probably should but in, in-game mechanics it's counter productive to the whole fragility of the Eldar units, they have Bonesingers for techs. The orks already have MadDocs or Painboys and BigMechs for techs. Chaos wouldn't care about casualties do indefatigably NO to that (IMO) but I have messed about with the Tech ability for the Champion in the Chaos Squat Warband, it works for me. I think all the Imperial armies have medics and techs available or at least the ability to get them from allies. Tyranids NO, but I do give them bonus stuff in campaigns when they've fed well. Necrons have more resurrection stuff than you can shake a stick at but the Tau I'm unsure of, it would seem right that they should have these units though.
Author:  ulric [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
creating new rules for the vampire is not only because I want a new powerfull model but
I/you can`t use it against a army with aa units
it`s just to risky it is a No1 target for your enemy
a fire storm or hydra batteris will shoot it down easily
so the thunderhawk or tau orc with a 4+ save they wont survive
even the landing barque gets problems against some fire storms

My one suggestion is to look again at the weapons you have chosen and see if you can tone it down, as is it seems too powerful IMO.

Yes it seems a little bit powerfull
but it has 2 big lasc/schuriken
the one shoot missles are another thing
I think there are 2 model variants for aeronautica imperialis
so 1 could be a transport without missles
and 1 a heavy ground attack fighter/bomber

IMO all larger airtransports have a bad armour
so they are noly sometimes usefull
but the models are all big and expensive

Eldar probably should but in, in-game mechanics it's counter productive to the whole fragility of the Eldar units, they have Bonesingers for techs. The orks already have MadDocs or Painboys and BigMechs for techs. Chaos wouldn't care about casualties do indefatigably NO to that (IMO) but I have messed about with the Tech ability for the Champion in the Chaos Squat Warband, it works for me. I think all the Imperial armies have medics and techs available or at least the ability to get them from allies. Tyranids NO, but I do give them bonus stuff in campaigns when they've fed well. Necrons have more resurrection stuff than you can shake a stick at but the Tau I'm unsure of, it would seem right that they should have these units though.

this rules will be only for fun
somthing like a small custom force field for orks giving a extra +6fixed saving throw in 15cm or something else

for eldar a warlockmodel as techmarin
for tyranids a "medicdominatrix" with reduced firepower
which heals 1stand/unit/turn something like that
just for fun


I don`t know that there were already rules for orks

greetings
Author:  Warhead [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Yeah, for fun is good. I've tried all sorts of stuff but the hard bit is staying honest and unbiased. I hit my head against that one often enough to know. I have only one request, can you let us know how you get on if you use these rules and can you maybe post a pic or two also, I like the batreps.  

The up to date Ork rules and others are on the Wiki, which I couldn't get into for some reason. But they are in there.
Author:  ulric [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
I think build up a eldar "techunit"
and maybe a medic

but they are at the end of my to-do-list
It seems that I don`t know how to use the quote- :p option
Author:  Warhead [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Yeah, I had the same trouble when I started here. Just highlight what you want to quote and then cut + paste it into what you want to post then highlight it again and then press "Quote" on the options above.

Eldar Techs are Bonesingers and they were a fantastic addition from the start of v4 IIRC, so at least that'll cut down the workload. They don't have any medics yet.
Author:  ulric [ Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:32 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
I think it will take some month before I will play again
don`t have many foes
and the best one got a girlfriend :evil:

I already used the variant vampire rules
but it was in a big game and at the end of it
so nothing useable to report
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
I think the transport flyers being fairly vulnerable is how things should be.  Flyers dropping troops in the middle of the enemy backfield is a very powerful ability and needs to be hard to do.  Anyone who remembers the unstoppable Thunderhawks from SM2 days will probably agree I think.

I think you are overstating the ability of armies to shoot down flyers too.  A Hydra shooting at a landing Vampire gets 4 shots at 6+, and a non-AA unit will have very little chance of hitting with the -2 penalty.  Also, while they are big, the Transport Flyers are all pretty cheap..generally 100 points....so I don't understand this:

IMO all larger airtransports have a bad armour
so they are noly sometimes usefull
but the models are all big and expensive    

The Phoenix is pretty expensive, but it is extremely powerful too!  A Flyer with long range weapons is almost unkillable if used cautiously, and two 75cm shots at 4+ with a -4, + Shuriken and bombs is a lot of damage potential.  I don't think it could be much cheaper without reducing the range of the Sonic Cannon.

Having said all that, if you wanted to make an assault version of the Vampire with weapons rather than transport capability I see no problems with that, but be reasonable in your points costing.
Author:  ulric [ Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:16 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Okay when we play we just use the new(netepic5.0) flyerrules
so a hydraunit shoots 12 times at the vapires hitting on a 5+ with tsm -1
and firestorms will shot down nearly any unit targeting

but maybe I have to read over the rules we play:
only aa units and inf. on first fire can target flyers(I think thats a good rule)
No snapfire for none-aa-units

I meant the price to buy it in the real world(thunderhawk/orca/vampire)

Okay I compared the phönix with the nightwing therefore I come up with 300 pt for 2 models
but I think this discussion will never ends :shutup:

Yes 2 variants will be the best solution

I don`t read the alternate flyerrules maybe I should
With the "new" rules(netepic5.0)
the flyers  just get usable

I must say I play most the time against Imperial army with devestators and hydras
there isn`t much place to hide

I think I will try a new houserule:
if a flyer starts it`s movement  get under fire
and survives the first attack
it can finish it`s move and
unload it´s inf. or bombs

I have a lot of examples using a huge amount of flyers only to see halve of them crushing to the ground
before fire only a single shot
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Okay when we play we just use the new(netepic5.0) flyerrules
so a hydraunit shoots 12 times at the vapires hitting on a 5+ with tsm -1
and firestorms will shot down nearly any unit targeting


You forget the -1 to hit for the Vampire on First Fire (i.e Landing) orders.

We found under the standard rules Flyers were massively overpowered, and some armies were all but defenseless,  but your mileage may vary  :upside:

I have a lot of examples using a huge amount of flyers only to see halve of them crushing to the ground
before fire only a single shot

That's good!  I don't think the game was ever meant to see a huge amount of flyers.  It is after all a ground combat game.  I'd guess if you toned down the use of Flyers and used the newer rules you might see your opponent using armies that don't have so many Hydras and Devestators too :)
Author:  ulric [ Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
[QUOTEYou forget the -1 to hit for the Vampire on First Fire (i.e Landing) orders.



Is that only for the vampires or for every flyer unloading troops?



[/QUOTE]That's good!  I don't think the game was ever meant to see a huge amount of flyers.  It is after all a ground combat game.  I'd guess if you toned down the use of Flyers and used the newer rules you might see your opponent using armies that don't have so many Hydras and Devestators too


I only use many flyers in big battles
and I think my opponent will never reduce the amount of Devestators :tongue:

But I play very rarely against air-vulnerable-armies such as orks
most we play with Eldar, Squats, Imperium
which all have a good air defensive  units
AA-units+Dark reaper/exarch(eldar)
thunderer(squats)
devs. or heavy troops(imp)

Anyway I think we made different experiences
and when I lost half of my flyers the other half took revenge :mad:
Author:  zap123 [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:25 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
The -1 to hit is standard for a Flyer on First Fire orders.
Author:  ulric [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Alternate Vampire rules
Oh I never read this
that strengthen the flyers a little bit
I know it`s useless
to discuss every unit stats.

I agree that it might be the best solution to
raise up 2 individual units
a transporter
and a heavy ground attack aircraft

best regards

ule
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