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Quote: (eysi @ 01 Jul. 2009, 11:56 )

if you compare the tables it's odd, that you almost never lose a warlock/phantom because they are way inferior. furthermore the revenant is usually moving and gets an 3+, the pulsar mounted phantom/warlock is usually on FF and gets only a 4+ save. that is roughly a 25% chance of destroying/disabling the titan with a vulcano cannon.
and far worse, the wings of the phantom/warlock titans only have a 3+ save (revenants have 2+). a few shots with -2 will usually do it. targeting the wing weapons seems also legit, 2+ save and if you can bypass the holo field and save, it's either a destroyed holofield or the whole titan will get offline/explode.

but on the other hand, once i fielded a warlock titan (double pulsar + witch sight) and it soaked unbelievable amounts of fire. it's a risky business a 700pt titan which might get killed by the first shot.

Maybe i will give the double heat lance a new chance in a few matches. but it was quite disappointing to see them get destroyed that easily.
You mentioned a setup including powerfist and heat lance, do you use the powerfist to shoot down shields or to enter CC? CAF 12 vs. CAF 14 seems quite risky.

Author:	eysi [ Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Questions
Hi there, long time no see. we managed to play a nice 6000pt each side battle this weekend and it was quite delightful as always. but as always some questions popped up and i hoped you would be kind enough to confirm our decisions, or not. 1. Our imperial player was in the belief that penetration also affects wound creatures. e.g. a vulcano cannon would one-shot a harridin if it hits. i hope this is wrong, since we couldn't find any clear evidence that this might be the case. 2a. The warp field of the dominantrix is said to affect any physical effect including Vortex, Warp missiles and i suppose D-cannon, too? 2b. The warp field will vanish if the unit moves. how does this effect snap firing a dominatrix? e.G. a dominatrix wants to move 10cm straight forward. tempest squad will snap fire after the dominatrix has moved 1cm, she casts the shield on herself to absorb the damage. May she stop her movement complete at this moment or is she forced to move on to complete the anounced 10cm and therefore lose the shield? 3. i dont know if this "official" or a house-rule, but we don't have to buy wing weapons for our titans. we had a scenario where a phantom titan was hit on the wing weapon, but he has none equipped. it was also a bit weird, that even it had a wing weapon, it would be impossible to destroy the wind weapon itself. furthermore it is quite annoying that the titan is almost every time destryod if shoot buypasses the shield. last game a had two phantom titans on advance orders (3+ fixxed save) and the first shot of a railgun oneshotted it (2on shield roll, scatter on wing weapon, flashback on reactor, reactor destroyed). the second titan died also by the first unit to shoot at it (overlord, 1 hit, 1on shield, wing weapon, flashback on reactor, reactor destroyed). I hate the phantom titan table, i wish i had more revenant titans, they are much more reliable due to their hit table. end of rant. 4. we had a bit of hard time to determine the current flyer rules. i know there is a topic but i failed at finding the actual rules. That's it for now, i hope i'm stealing too much of your time, thanks in advance tim

Author:	zap123 [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:32 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
Hi Tim, If you go to the WikiWikiWar site (see button at the top of the page) and go to the File Galleries section there is a NetEpic folder. It has the alternate Flyer rules (I recommend them ) and also the latest versions of the army lists. The Tyranid question about penetrating should be cleared up by referring to the latest Tyranid list. Quickly though: 1. No, Penetrating only affects Bio-Titans. 2a. Any Physical effects, but not Etherial. 2b. She can't cast the shield. It is only useable in the Combat phase, not the Movement phase. 3. Rant noted. Risky Eldar titans....hiding behind buildings is a useful tactic 4. See notes about the Alternate Flyer rules.

Author:	Dwarf Supreme [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:54 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
Quote: (eysi @ 28 Jun. 2009, 13:21 ) 3. i dont know if this "official" or a house-rule, but we don't have to buy wing weapons for our titans. we had a scenario where a phantom titan was hit on the wing weapon, but he has none equipped. it was also a bit weird, that even it had a wing weapon, it would be impossible to destroy the wind weapon itself. furthermore it is quite annoying that the titan is almost every time destryod if shoot buypasses the shield. last game a had two phantom titans on advance orders (3+ fixxed save) and the first shot of a railgun oneshotted it (2on shield roll, scatter on wing weapon, flashback on reactor, reactor destroyed). the second titan died also by the first unit to shoot at it (overlord, 1 hit, 1on shield, wing weapon, flashback on reactor, reactor destroyed). I hate the phantom titan table, i wish i had more revenant titans, they are much more reliable due to their hit table. end of rant. If you don't like the current critical hit tables, stay tuned. I'm working on revamping the critical hits tables, D10 based, instead of D6. I'm almost done with the Eldar tables.

Author:	eysi [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
that are great news especially the new table could fix a lot of "random" element on the eldar titans. btw: couldn't hide behind a building from an overlord armada and the titans had both dual heat lances. they are forced to run up to enemy, no great choice of actions for the titans. just one question: i recall that before a year or so, there was a discussion about the eldar super-hevay tanks (cobra & Scorpion point cost). is there any progression going on? i would like to field some of them, but at the moment they are just to expensive and squishy compared to the revenant. thanks for your help.

Author:	zap123 [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Questions
You sure you are using the correct rules for the Revenants....75cm range, D3 hits for each Pulse Laser? I find due to the shortish range and holofield issues they are pretty easy to kill. Three Tempests for 500 always seemed a long way stronger than 2 Revenants for 400 to me. The Scorpion is slightly more expensive with the same basic firepower of a Revenant, but has the massive benefit of being able to pop up. Cobra is pretty sucky, but I think the Void Spinner is ok.

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

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Author:	eysi [ Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Questions
yep, we are using this rules. but 200 pts for the most endureable titan, the eldar can but with scatter laser, rocket laucher and the more reliable pulse laser i prefere 4 revenant over a warlock titan with dual pulsar. right now i consider the revenant as the most useful unit in my army. it does have an good amount of firepower and soaks so much damage which had otherwise hit/destroyed my falcons or tempest. furthermore you can use it to prevent an enemy titan from shooting. just charge him and hope to survive a round or two in CC. the master mime costs on victory point and can only do this to a single detachment not a titan. i use them to rip the shields of the imperial titans and praetorians. so there is not much cover left, if i can shoot him, he can shoot me. but the little ones are tough so, i can live with that. also the scorpion gives 3 VP and is so much easier to destroy than an revenant. even if you get this tank into cover, the moment you pop-up and the nasty vulcano snaps you its all worth nothing. but 2 out 3 shots at an revenant are useless because of the fixxed save. i would be happy if the cobra and scorpion would be in an host with a tempest. 3 models 600pts. it will probably be worse than the allmighty tempest host, but still playable. but i guess its some kind of balance, good revenants are counterweight for the less appealing cobra/phantom titans w. d-cannons etc. thanks for yout thoughts.

Author:	zap123 [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:37 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
I find a Phantom with dual Pulsars much more durable because so few enemy weapons will be able to shoot at it. Having to close to 75cm for the Revenant usually means most of the enemy shooters can reach it...and if they roll enough dice the Revenant will die . They are also a bit too easy to kill in close combat if the bad guys ever catch them. If you have the Scorpion and enough detachments (usually easy for Eldar...everything is on First Fire!) you can always wait out any nasty Volcano cannon armed units. A Revenant can only hide

Author:	eysi [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
quite odd, i experienced the exact opposite. usually the enemy has about 4-8 weapons with 1m (Railgun, Vulcano, WarpMissile, Bombaz ...) and my eldar are usually forced to be on advanced, because there are only a few unit which can shoot from 1m range. tempest, pulsuar, doomweaver and AA. But it seems to me, that the most of the eldar army was built to come at least in the 75cm or 50cm range. it's kind of odd to be forced to play a titan setup, which is very static and contrary to the the titan description. i am wondering if anyone has good experiences with a d-cannon or heat lance Setup. my last match was a disaster from the titans point of view. both titans (double heat lance phantom titans) weren't able to shoot once, but at least they were cheap. maybe it's time to test out the d-cannons, but i cannot really imagine, that it effective against titans due to the "always scatters". but time will tell. any input is welcome

Author:	zap123 [ Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Questions
The D-Cannon is complete rubbish. I use a Phantom with Heat Lance and Powerfist as a super-cheapie titan but only against some armies. It is very useful against a Khorne army because it can go hunting Lord of Battles and daemon engines on Advance orders, and I want to try it against Tyranids as a Dominatrix killer that can also hurt bio-titans. However, Pulsars and Tremor cannon (great against Gargants) are really the only 2 serious choices for a Phantom. Psychic Lance is a useful option for Warlocks against horde armies.

Author:	scream [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:12 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
Revenants are a pain for opponent, you can't just ignore them. Maybe I have never been lucky against them but usually, I'm able to kill only one per game despite of the firepower directed at them. About your question 3), I'd say if the titan have wingos but no wing-weapons, consider the "weapon-wing" location as a wing location. Eldar titan resistance is random. I never managed to destroy the Warlock titan of my eldar opponent. Last game, it lost the holo-field at first turn (I always target wings at first). End of turn 3, it was still standed. Off course, the Warlock titan was accompanied by a pair of revenants so I had to divide my firepower to avoid getting the revenants titans in my deploy zone at the end of turn 2 movement phase.

Author:	zap123 [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:35 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
I always think Revenants (and Warhounds) are just easy points, but maybe I'm just lucky against them . If I'm not playing Eldar myself I usually play IG, Squats or Chaos. Those armies all seem to deal with them pretty quickly. As an Eldar player it is very rare for me to lose a Phantom or Warlock, but Revenants die a lot.

Author:	scream [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:00 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
First turn, revenants charge (-1 to be hit) and 60cm move this grants them a large number of possibility to hide/get a tactical position. If at first turn you did not manage to destroy them, you know that at second turn with a simple advance order, they will be in your back and their pulse laser will be painfull With eldar titans, if the eldar player is quite lucky with holofield roll, you just can't hit them. I managed one time to destroy a revenant with a Leman Russ point defense (I rolled a 7+ and my opponent rolled a series of 1 for holofield/armor save, weapon destroyed etc...). Lucky shot! In SM/TL, eldar titans were cheesy for squat goliath/doomsday cannons as they just ignored the holo-field. Now that artillery barrages always scatter when targetting an holofield protected titan, it's harder to get them down For standard titans, that's not a question of luck, just a bunch of cheap -1 TSM hits to remove shields and a final +X penetrating hit to kill it.

Author:	eysi [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
if you compare the tables it's odd, that you almost never lose a warlock/phantom because they are way inferior. furthermore the revenant is usually moving and gets an 3+, the pulsar mounted phantom/warlock is usually on FF and gets only a 4+ save. that is roughly a 25% chance of destroying/disabling the titan with a vulcano cannon. and far worse, the wings of the phantom/warlock titans only have a 3+ save (revenants have 2+). a few shots with -2 will usually do it. targeting the wing weapons seems also legit, 2+ save and if you can bypass the holo field and save, it's either a destroyed holofield or the whole titan will get offline/explode. but on the other hand, once i fielded a warlock titan (double pulsar + witch sight) and it soaked unbelievable amounts of fire. it's a risky business a 700pt titan which might get killed by the first shot. Maybe i will give the double heat lance a new chance in a few matches. but it was quite disappointing to see them get destroyed that easily. You mentioned a setup including powerfist and heat lance, do you use the powerfist to shoot down shields or to enter CC? CAF 12 vs. CAF 14 seems quite risky.

Author:	ulric [ Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Questions
In my opinion the reverants are much harder to kill and have an equal worth as the phantom -same armour saves -smalle hit-location-template -faster and smaller so they can hide better -and a better or equal weaponry(4 medium pulsar,2rocket launcher,2 scatter laser) I think it`s a good thing to combine them with jetbikes(yes I know it`s from the WD article) and perhaps with some knights the jetbikes will hunt down every not-superheavy size unit and the reverants and knights destroys the rest There are always worthwhile their point costs greetings ulric

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Author:	zap123 [ Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:04 am ]
Post subject:	Questions
Quote: (eysi @ 01 Jul. 2009, 11:56 ) if you compare the tables it's odd, that you almost never lose a warlock/phantom because they are way inferior. furthermore the revenant is usually moving and gets an 3+, the pulsar mounted phantom/warlock is usually on FF and gets only a 4+ save. that is roughly a 25% chance of destroying/disabling the titan with a vulcano cannon. and far worse, the wings of the phantom/warlock titans only have a 3+ save (revenants have 2+). a few shots with -2 will usually do it. targeting the wing weapons seems also legit, 2+ save and if you can bypass the holo field and save, it's either a destroyed holofield or the whole titan will get offline/explode. but on the other hand, once i fielded a warlock titan (double pulsar + witch sight) and it soaked unbelievable amounts of fire. it's a risky business a 700pt titan which might get killed by the first shot. Maybe i will give the double heat lance a new chance in a few matches. but it was quite disappointing to see them get destroyed that easily. You mentioned a setup including powerfist and heat lance, do you use the powerfist to shoot down shields or to enter CC? CAF 12 vs. CAF 14 seems quite risky. Well, my Phantoms almost all have Pulsars or Tremor cannon, so there is usually few enemy units that can shoot at them. They are also ALWAYS on advance orders, so get a fixed 3+ against the few shots that do come in. First turn priority for them is to kill anything that has the range to get them , and I'm not scared of hiding from nasty things like Shadow Swords/Swordfish/Soopa Guns. My Falcons, Tempests or Doom Weavers can deal with them. I've seen "chicken legs" taken down by a Tactical detachment...that doesn't happen to my Phantoms When I use the Powerfist + Heat Lance (only 450 points with two Missile wings!) most of the time it usually takes a flank and looks to charge into close combat against high value targets with advance orders, but the combo means it can really chew up an imperial titan if it is low on shields and the Phantom can advance around behind it. Not used much but the threat is scary for your opponent.