Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=15077		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Ok folks, another bone of contention.

The Ork Bonebreaka's 4+ to hit and a great close combat machine all for 150 points. I love these things, never leave go on a Waaagh without them.

The Leman Russ. The pride of the Imperium... what a suck-tactic heap and all for the cost of 200 points... 550 points (a bit better) for a company ONLY for the Guard... 750 points for Adeptus Mechanicus?.. (Eh!?! They must have saw them coming in the show room or something. Don't they make the frigin' things, surely it would be cheaper!..)

With the exception of my last one (due to cool looking model and not a whole lot of other choices since I used someone else's stuff) I defy you to find a batrep here that uses these oh so fantastic they don't need changed or their cost reduced units.

Come on, even the Orks have a better to hit AND a better Caf and only suffer a slightly reduced armour save. Even the Eldar Falcon is only 150 points and it can transport troops and shoot well and pop-up.

I am not suggesting the units mentioned above as examples should have their costs increased. That would be infuriating in the extreme. No, what I am, have been saying is that the Leman Russ has always been too dear and should be reduced in cost or have it's to hit increased to 4+.

I have companies of these things, I want to use them but with these costs that seems unlikely.
Author:  togarini [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
im not all that into the guard in epic, but yes, if the leeman russ is lacking then thats a major mistake. its the cornerstone that the empire is founded on, and would have seen changes if it was that bad.

but, having said that, the tank is subject to some major balance issues. since its the main tank of the guard, if made too efficient, one could simply steamroll the opponents army every time and not bother with infantry at all. is that the guard army i would want to see? nope.
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Sure, ok... So what would be wrong in the simple fix of only take say one company per 3000 points? Make it Unique. Why not, it was done to the Wind Rider Host and the Squat Biker Guild... (to name but two off the top of my head.)

That way say if someone had spent a lot of money and time getting these models they wouldn't feel so frustrated that to play them they were paying too much or not able to take them at all due to better valued units available. Just think, Imperial Guard Armour in play... how novel. You may even get to play a Steel Fist army. What ever next... Guard with armour... tsk, where will the madness end.

Personally I have made two distinct designs.

The first has no change at all. It is the same crap tank we all avoid. However the cost is only 175 points per detachment and 500 points per Company. These are available to IG, TG and PDF. These models are the crap Mk I+II minis.

Then there is the Mk II, The Battle Cannon has been fitted with a better rangefinder/targeter combo, I don't know... someone found the STC plans for it under the Emperors bedpan or something. It now hits on a 4+. Amazingly bringing it into line with just about all the battle cannons that the Imperium have on other units... All other stats are the same, and quite right too. This now gives it the worth of 200 points per detachment and 600 per company. Available to IG and TG but only in detachments for PDF and not at all for Frateris Militia...

There, now tell me, am I being unreasonable?

Oi! Where did the Commissar go. Isn't there meant to be one PER IG Company or something? What no corresponding trade off for letting him go? No benefits? The Guard needs a union to help against these bad trades with management.  :tongue: Solidarity brothers.
Author:  sanjuro [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
I agree with warhead. Tank companies for imperial armies are too expensive. I can only guess where it comes from. In the original game, followers of cheese would take too many of them and blitz all to oblivion. (well, sounds like a good tactic  :laugh: ) Of course, obvious gamebreakers should be fixed, but not to the extend that these companies are not useful anymore. Another reason why tank comapnies should be cheaper is the relative ease by which they are destroyed by the enemy. Break point of five, targets highly visible....My tank company vanishes always in the 1st or 2nd turn.

Same is true for Land Raiders. I am very fond of these tanks. And I consider them an important part of any marine force, but I think I will quit using them. 8 Victory points is simply too much. Even my fellow players (and that's rather unusual...) agree it should be 600 for the coy, as it used to be.

just my 2 cents, humbly whispered for your consideration  :tongue:  

btw, warhead, I like your leman russ company variation, sounds nice. I'll try that out!
Author:  Pettan [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Like I think Zap said I am not a big fan of +4 tohit on imperial tanks either. So id rather lower the cost.

/P-man
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
No 4+ for IG but is ok for Ork?!? *Puzzled, much scratching of headness!*

Imperial Battlecannon are mostly 75cm x1 4+ -2TSM... why not standardise this stat? It would be easy to remember too.

However, P/man you do agree that there is a problem... you would rather it were fixed by cost... I can respect that.

Sanjuro we are as brothers in our thinking. Tank companies are a good source of VP income. No humility necessary we are all equal here. Any and all can throw their hat in the ring.
Author:  Pettan [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
You have a point with the standardization if its the same name. This goes back way back though and with other armies as well. I believe the Leviathan was 5+ on its battlecannon. I see now that it is 4+. The Cyclops has 5+ on its battlecannon and the Colossus has always been +4.

As you say there is a problem in some areas but hey. That´s why we are all here. Things can always be made better :blues:

8 Vps for a few landraiders is a steep price. But ive been crying about that before.

I do not know that much about the orc army to start commenting it that much. In general I see them having many hit dice with high tohit scores. It would go with the feeling of their whole army. You don´t really know what will happen but if you are lucky you can do wonders.

My name is P-man. Not P/man!  :tongue:
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
P-man? that's what I said...  :vD  

As you say there is a problem in some areas but hey. That's why we are all here. Things can always be made better

8 Vps for a few landraiders is a steep price. But ive been crying about that before.
Ah, but you didn't have a Warhead handy!.. :cool: I make a lot of noise.
Author:  Pettan [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Yes you can come in handy!  :whistle:

Haven´t you ever noticed that people stop listening to crybabies?  :vD
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Um, what? Where you speaking there...  :tongue:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
Sounds like someone needs to go back to the weapons range ...  :glare:
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
No refunds!
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
We have a player that takes multiple companies of Leman Rus...pretty scary actually. BatRep challenge response:

Lots of Leman Rus 

The Leman Rus is basically unchanged since the word dot, though the old 15cm 6+ Bolters have become PD(1) now.  The Leman Rus company has already been discounted, and the tank has arguably been made better by PD.  I see a tank with good armour, decent CAF, decent firepower + PD, and in company strength 55 points each.  Falcon has less firepower, lower CAF, no PD, but does transport and can pop up (which is admittedly very strong) for 50.  Bonebreaker has better CAF, Death Roller, worse armour, less firepower, no PD and has to deal with Ork command structure for 50 points.  I am struggling to see a strong justification for change here....what am I missing?

The PD is a new thing, and given the 2 sponson weapons I guess you could upgrade to PD(2) without causing a cascade.  I doubt this would satisfy though  :rock:
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
BatRep... way cool...  :cool:  but more so for the Knights they faced. I would think direct fire 5+ tanks did quite poorly against Eldar Knights... Tank companies are a good source of VP with a BP of 5. He must love his tanks.

Eldar 37 vs Imperial 21  by turn three



Author:  Warhead [ Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Orks can shoot better than the Guard!?!
The Leman Rus is basically unchanged since the word dot, though the old 15cm 6+ Bolters have become PD(1) now.
True, but I never liked it before either... despite all the PR hype. It would be nice to use some though and for them to be worth taking.

The Leman Rus company has already been discounted, and the tank has arguably been made better by PD.
But this was a sweeping general change to all units in order to tidy up all those annoying 15cm 6+ -0TSm attacks. It was not done for the Leman Russ' benefit alone. It is a game mechanism.

Falcon has less firepower, lower CAF, no PD, but does transport and can pop up (which is admittedly very strong) for 50.  Bonebreaker has better CAF, Death Roller, worse armour, less firepower, no PD and has to deal with Ork command structure for 50 points.  I am struggling to see a strong justification for change here....what am I missing?
The Leman Russ is not priced at 55 points... It is priced at 66.+ points. It receives a discount for IG Companies only. This discount is not available to Tech Guard and Company form is not available to PDF.

Also, one 4+ attack is almost (but not quite) the same as two 5+ attacks but yet it costs extra. I'm not clever enough to throw stats about but I would rather have the 1x 4+ attack units for 150 points than 2x 5+ attacks for 200 points. The discounted company makes it better but as I said before only for the IG. Lower the Detachment cost and provide the company discount for the Tech Guard.
Page 1 of 3 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/