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Manticore
Pettan
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:15 pm 
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I never really liked the Manicore cause it only shoots every other turn. Means that it can only shoot 2 times in a 3-4 turns game..

Would much rather have it shoot 6BP:s every turn and perhaps make them slightly more expensive....

Another point is that the Adeptus Mechanicus arent really the strongest army around..

//Pete

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zap123
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 1:47 am 
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If your game only goes 3 turns they have effectively had a free shot.....but in general my vote is "sucky".

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primarch
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 2:50 am 
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(Pettan @ May 10 2008,10:15)
QUOTE
I never really liked the Manicore cause it only shoots every other turn. Means that it can only shoot 2 times in a 3-4 turns game..

Would much rather have it shoot 6BP:s every turn and perhaps make them slightly more expensive....

Another point is that the Adeptus Mechanicus arent really the strongest army around..

//Pete

Hi!

The true "trick" is to make a useful unit that is DIFFERENT from the ones we already have.

Suggestions?

Primarch

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zap123
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 3:24 am 
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Personally I have no problem here....every list has sucky units....it is only natural.  I'm also not really a fan of meddling with "classic" units much.  

For the Manticore is a bit of a timing thing, but they are sucky compared to a Basilisk detachment -

1st Turn - 3 Templates vs 2 Templates
2nd Turn - 3 templates vs 4 templates
3rd turn - 6 Templates vs 6 Templates
4th turn - 6 templates vs 8 templates

So if you win in turn 1 the Manticore might be better.....except it's templates are worse and have to be touching!  If you absolutely had to change things I think either a/ take away the requirement that they touch. or b/ give them a -X TSM, or c/ if all three are combined use the 12cm template.  I'd vote for c/ (or d/ ).

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duz.holger
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:24 pm 
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you  get 2 batteries per company use them to alternate and the split the barrage option is good send against mass horde opponents

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primarch
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 9:18 pm 
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(zap123 @ May 11 2008,22:24)
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Personally I have no problem here....every list has sucky units....it is only natural.  I'm also not really a fan of meddling with "classic" units much.  

For the Manticore is a bit of a timing thing, but they are sucky compared to a Basilisk detachment -

1st Turn - 3 Templates vs 2 Templates
2nd Turn - 3 templates vs 4 templates
3rd turn - 6 Templates vs 6 Templates
4th turn - 6 templates vs 8 templates

So if you win in turn 1 the Manticore might be better.....except it's templates are worse and have to be touching!  If you absolutely had to change things I think either a/ take away the requirement that they touch. or b/ give them a -X TSM, or c/ if all three are combined use the 12cm template.  I'd vote for c/ (or d/ ).

Hi!

I have been thinking about your "c" alternative for years.

I thinks thats the way to do it.

A manticore has two modes of fire. The current one and the combining them into the large 12cm burst.

Also, regular fire with three templates only need one of the templates to touch another.

Primarch

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Pettan
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 10:19 pm 
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A manticore has two modes of fire. The current one and the combining them into the large 12cm burst.


I like that alternative aswell..

How many barrage points would it yeild?
The MRL on titans have 4 points on big template instead of 6 on the small.

Together the Manticore gives 18 BP:s and only 9 of them gives the maximum of +2 to affect...

If you put 3 normal templates (6cm) they have a similar area on the big template (Big template 30% bigger) And the 3 templates only give 6 barrage points. But they can be formed however you want. In a line or in a circle..

I would vote for atleast 8 Barrage points to make the unit interesting, I could go for 9 BP:s aswell cause othervise its actually worse than the Griffon.

The Bombard 9BP:s -3 save shoots every turn and destroys buildings.
Basilisk 6 BP:s -2 save 2 ROF.
Griffon 6 BP:s ignores cover shoot every turn big template

The Manticore would then have 8 or nine 9 BP:s 0 save big template and shoot every other turn.

/Pete




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zap123
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:27 am 
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Dang, I forgot about the Griffon.  Perhaps "if all Manticores in a battery fire at the same spot their individual BP is halved (so 3BP x3 = 2+ hit), and the large 12cm template is placed."  The Manticore only fires every other turn but has a huge range advantage over the Griffon, and much better to hit.

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netepic
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:06 pm 
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The 12cm template option sounds awesome, a good way of adding functionality to a fairly vanilla unit. I've always avoided them previously, but against hordes, a 12cm template weapon would be mighty fine, even if it only fired once every two turns.

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scream
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:29 pm 
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That's a good idea but by adding a new way of fire for the manticore, I hope that it will not generate a modification on all others artillery units (griffons, basilisks, whirwinds, basilisks etc...) but I'm OK with the current manticore profile ;)




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loofnick
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:48 pm 
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(zap123 @ May 13 2008,01:27)
QUOTE
Dang, I forgot about the Griffon.  Perhaps "if all Manticores in a battery fire at the same spot their individual BP is halved (so 3BP x3 = 2+ hit), and the large 12cm template is placed."  The Manticore only fires every other turn but has a huge range advantage over the Griffon, and much better to hit.

The area of a 12cm is the same as 3 6cm circles so BP's should be a third the amount, to be equal to the normal fire mode.  You still get a slight advantage in choosing the shape of the area hit, but that's all.

I'd prefer a higher BP for each Manticore- don't bother adding another rule.

But, so long as they keep their characteristic 0 save mod and slow firing then I'm happy.
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Pettan
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:32 pm 
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The area of a 12cm is the same as 3 6cm circles so BP's should be a third the amount, to be equal to the normal fire mode.  You still get a slight advantage in choosing the shape of the area hit, but that's all.


If you only give it 6 BP:s Loofnick then its less then half as effective as the Griffon..

I think 9 BP:s and shooting every other turn is brilliant.

/Pete

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scream
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:25 am 
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(Pettan @ May 13 2008,23:32)
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I think 9 BP:s and shooting every other turn is brilliant.

You should want manticore to shoot every turn ?

I'm also opposed to a value like 9BP. hitting on a 2+ is usually reserved to rare weapons or lucky dices (D6+3BP for some squats units). I mean that with a 12cm template hitting on a 2+...more than 83% of minis under the template will be destroyed.

Taking the Rocket company, fist turn: 2*12cm templates and see your ork opponent crying 'cause you've destryoed a complete footy clan...

MRL large shot to-hit has been reduced, why increasing manticore firepower up to 9BP in concentrate fire ?

12cm large template represents a surface of: 113cm?
3*6cm template represents a surface of: 85cm?

This is about 25% bigger than 3 small templates...and with a 2+ to hit, you can be sure that griffons will be not be played any more and it will be needed to modify their profile.

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zap123
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 7:21 am 
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I don't ever see Griffons played now :D.  I do take Screams' point though...against Orks and Guard these guys would be major scary.  Perhaps they should just stay the way they are and always have been.

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loofnick
 Post subject: Manticore
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:38 am 
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Apologies for my maths, I used the method for getting the circumference.  I was sure I'd looked this up earlier :blush:  Thanks Scream!

Anyway as the circumference is the same,  it will be just as easy to surround the barrage area with your Orks, so everything should be fine!   :;):
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