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Regenerating and Close Combat
- Nothing. The Bloodletters count as destroyed and no CC ensue. In the End phase, Bloodletters are allowed a regeneration attempt. 67%  67%  [ 12 ]
- Nothing. Since Bloodletters are down and engaged in CC. Their remnants are quickly dispatched by Terminators and the stand is removed. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
- A fight happens, but Bloodletters roll no dice and use only their base CAF. If they win, Terminators are destroyed. 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
- A fight happens, but Bloodletters roll no dice and use only their base CAF. If they win, Terminators are not destroyed; Bloodletters just managed to defend themselves. 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
- Something else (please specify!) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 18

Regenerating and Close Combat
Kotrin
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:37 pm 
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Instead of throwing my solutions, let's start by checking if there is any problem in the community - for example, if people play this situation differently...

Take the following: a stand of Khorne Bloodletters with a Charge order engages a stand of Terminators with First Fire. In the First Fire segment, Terminators manage to hit the Bloodletters and they fail their save.

They are a regenerating unit "killed" in the shooting phase and are engaged in Close combat.
What happens in the CC phase?  :confuse:

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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:39 am 
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My first idea was (1), but in this case having more than 1 wound becomes a disadantage...
So I'd say (3). Remember that "killed" means rather "not fighting any more" (think of fleeing units), so an agonising unit (especially Chaos/Tyranid one) is still dangerous.
It could also be discussed that downed units could not pin, so the terminators do not fight if they do not want.

BTW, how can the Terminators shoot in FF segment while being pinned ? Aren't they supposed to Snap Fire during the movement phase (so before being in CC) ?
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Enderel
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:02 am 
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If a single stand is all that is left of the blood letter unit then I would go for option 1.  My reason for this is -

- First Fire is there to allow a unit to kill close combat specialists charging in.
- In any normal situation where a stand is killed (doesn't have the regenerate ability) no close combat would take place.

Depending on whether you can strike a wounded creature or not nothing doesn't come in to it as the blood letters hadn't really reached the terminators.  I think they can hit wounded creatures and it should be base CAF and only ability to defend themselves.   What's the Tyranid monstrous creatures (multi wound one) take on that?

I would take it that during the charge the terminators managed to kill the bloodletters before they reached the terminator battle lines.  

In the end phase the blood letters would have the ability to re generate but not be placed into hand to hand as that would be unfair to the terminators.  Rather they would be placed along the line of the charge, probably half way for fairness.  Like a failed charge in Fantasy battle.

Ulmo, if a model has multiple wounds and is reduced to 0 then I would treat them in the same way, failed charge, didn't get to lines, would be able to regenerate as per it's standard rules in end phase.


Very interesting question there Kotrin!

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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Ok, I agree with your interpretation, with the following adding :
downed regenerating units can be shot at (normal rules) and/or CCed (use CAF without dices) to inflict more wounds.

So in the previous example, if the Terminators inflicted 2 unsaved hits, the Bloodletter has 2 wounds to regenerate to avoid being removed.
And another unit can harm him more.
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Kotrin
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:21 am 
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More than 50 views and 5 votes so far? C'mon people, don't be afraid to vote!! :)

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scream
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 7:49 am 
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(Ulmo @ Sep. 25 2007,15:33)
QUOTE
So in the previous example, if the Terminators inflicted 2 unsaved hits, the Bloodletter has 2 wounds to regenerate to avoid being removed.

I would say Bloodletters only have one wound so they just can roll 1 dice to regenerate 1 wound. With 2 wounds, they are "automatically" removed as they can not regenerate the second wound.

This is how i think it could be managed: You can not roll more dices than you have maximum wounds and keep the regeneration a "little" bonus for the regenerating chaos troops.

About he poll: 1 off course...sorry but allowing a CC round to the dead bloodletters would give them the juggernaut ability "always do their charge". In this case, you took example of terminators, but if you do the same with some standard guardsmen, you know that even a CC with the base BL CAF will do a lot of casualties in the guardsmen...

Snap Fire before CC will put the incoming BL (those that have been hit and missed their armor save)  at least one cm in front of the shooting units, they are not pinned and BL do not get a free CC round.




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Enderel
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:55 am 
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I always used snap fire as a way for other troops to intercept chargers that were charging a unit on advance orders or charge orders (but charging into a target of my choosing)

I used first fire from pinned units to fire at the unit that charged them.

Maybe this gives to much advantage to the firing (defensive) player as it is very much like overwatch in 40k (Second edition) but we've never found it to be an issue.

I agree with Scream on the fact that snap fire should probably stop the BL in front of the unit it was attempting to CC.

I'm not sure on the fact they should only ever have enough dice to save their maximum wounds quota, but that depends on the wording of the regeneration rule for really large creatures and when and how often they can regenerate wounds.  Is it every turn they can regenerate but up to their max or regenerate to their max at the start of the turn?

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GreatHarlequin
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:57 pm 
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I chose 1st option, as to me, that's the benefit of First Fire, you get to nail your opponents before they get towards you. And later on in the turn, after CC, they can try and regen.
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Warhead
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:16 pm 
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I picked option one, because it's what the rules tell you to do.  :p

However, in the case of Daemon Slayers (Grey Knights) Bloodletters are removed either after being shot(?) in the First Fire phase or after being in close combat. You could argue in this instance that they could dispose of the Bloodletter before they get to regenerate.

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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:24 pm 
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Well, this poll is 2 years old...

The choice 1 gives an advantage to a 1 wound regenerating against a 2+ wounds regenerating unit :
The 1 wound model is killed, it regenerates during the end phase (on a 4+ ?) and if successful remains in play.
A 2+ wounds model is killed, you are allowed to shoots again/CC it to make extra wounds, all extra wounds must be regenerated to allow surviving.

The 1 wound models are protected from those extra hits, making them harder to eliminate.
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ulric
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:49 pm 
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I choose one
[QUOTEThe choice 1 gives an advantage to a 1 wound regenerating against a 2+ wounds regenerating unit :
The 1 wound model is killed, it regenerates during the end phase (on a 4+ ?) and if successful remains in play.
A 2+ wounds model is killed, you are allowed to shoots again/CC it to make extra wounds, all extra wounds must be regenerated to allow surviving.

The 1 wound models are protected from those extra hits, making them harder to eliminate.[/QUOTE]

I agree you have the same problem with the Tyranid Carnifex

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Biel el'Jonson
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:05 pm 
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Quote: (Ulmo @ Nov. 14 2009, 14:24 )

Well, this poll is 2 years old...

The choice 1 gives an advantage to a 1 wound regenerating against a 2+ wounds regenerating unit :
The 1 wound model is killed, it regenerates during the end phase (on a 4+ ?) and if successful remains in play.
A 2+ wounds model is killed, you are allowed to shoots again/CC it to make extra wounds, all extra wounds must be regenerated to allow surviving.

The 1 wound models are protected from those extra hits, making them harder to eliminate.

I disagree Ulmo.
Quote: 

Special Ability: Regeneration (Page 35 NetEpic gold)
These units are able to heal themselves. When a regenerating unit fails an Armor Save, turn the model on its side and treat it as dead. Keep track of how many wounds it has suffered, as the enemy can keep shooting it to make sure it stays down. Shots against a downed creature hit automatically but armor saves are made normally. During the End Phase roll a D6 for each wound. On 4+ it’s healed.

This rule does not allow CC vs 1 wound/regenerating models but it allows to fire on it to inflict more than 1 wounds. So they are not always harder to eliminate.
The problem is that only multiple wounds creatures can be attacked in CC when they are deads.
That's one of the reason why i like the propositions of Kotrin on regeneration and multiple wounds.




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ulric
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:29 am 
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Quote: 

I disagree Ulmo.
Quote:

Special Ability: Regeneration (Page 35 NetEpic gold)
These units are able to heal themselves. When a regenerating unit fails an Armor Save, turn the model on its side and treat it as dead. Keep track of how many wounds it has suffered, as the enemy can keep shooting it to make sure it stays down. Shots against a downed creature hit automatically but armor saves are made normally. During the End Phase roll a D6 for each wound. On 4+ it’s healed.

This rule does not allow CC vs 1 wound/regenerating models but it allows to fire on it to inflict more than 1 wounds. So they are not always harder to eliminate.
The problem is that only multiple wounds creatures can be attacked in CC when they are deads.
That's one of the reason why i like the propositions of Kotrin on regeneration and multiple wounds.


So you treat a Carnifex or Blodletter like a Hive Tyrant just with one wound right?
They can take multible wounds?
That would solve that problem
Maybe allow to shoot at a model downed in CC
with autohit you can make short work with him

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Biel el'Jonson
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Quote: 

Ulric : So you treat a Carnifex or Blodletter like a Hive Tyrant just with one wound right?

I don't and Epicnet gold and 5.2 rules don't. Carnifex are not multiple wounds creatures. So, as I said, you can't fight them during the CC segment if they are already deads but you can keep shooting them.

Quote: 

Ulric : They can take multible wounds?

Quote: 

Special Ability: Regeneration (Page 35 NetEpic gold)
These units are able to heal themselves. When a regenerating unit fails an Armor Save, turn the model on its side and treat it as dead. Keep track of how many wounds it has suffered, as the enemy can keep shooting it to make sure it stays down. Shots against a downed creature hit automatically but armor saves are made normally. During the End Phase roll a D6 for each wound. On 4+ it’s healed.

"[...]Keep track of how many wounds it has suffered[...]" means that they can take multiple wounds, yes.




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Ulmo
 Post subject: Regenerating and Close Combat
PostPosted: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:16 pm 
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Humm, it seems that I missed something and that you're right.
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