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Titan weapons balance

Kotrin

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:21 pm

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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am
Posts: 168

Hi,

While browsing through Titan weapons I found two annoying changes IMHO...

Barrage Missile Launcher: This devastating weapon hurls huge bolts of super heated plasma at the enemy. It is a one-shot weapon and can only be mounted on a carapace location. When you decide to fire the missiles, first place one barrage template within line of sight of the firing Titan and scatter it 2D6 cm. This weapon will always scatter even though the template is placed within line of sight. Now roll a D6 and place that many additional templates. All additional templates must be placed so that they touch at least two of the previously placed templates (except for the first one, of course).

100 points, as much as a Plasma Cannon, for the Emperor's sake!!

For 100 points, we have 1+1D6 barrage templates with 8BP and -2 to save? One-shot weapon? Always scattering? With special rules for placing extra templates?! Wow, I can imagine how impressive it can be when your first template ends in the middle of nothing and then you create a nice triangle with your two extra templates...

I think some people went too far in dumbing down this weapon option!!

The other extreme is:

Multiple Rocket Launcher: The MRL fires a barrage of explosive rockets and is used to provide long range support fire for advancing troops. The rocket launcher has two modes of fire, and may choose between them each turn. Penetration mode uses the 6 cm template and hits on a 3+ with ?1 TSM. Shotgun mode uses the large 12cm template and hits on a 4+ with 0 TSM. This is an artillery weapon and both modes have all the associated rules, i.e. they scatter, damage buildings and may fire indirectly.

I know that there has been heated debate over the original rocket launcher, which was a poor choice on all accounts, but now it's so damn strong...

A mere Reaver titan with 2-3 MRL on it - the weapon can be fitted anywhere on a titan - can easily and utterly destroy a complete Ork horde made of infantry stands and light vehicles.

I suggest the "shotgun mode" is decreased to 4BP, or even 2 (hitting everything on a 5+ or a 6+.) But killing half the thingies under the Air Burst template is just... Too far, especially when you can do that up to four times with a Warlord titan, and every turn!!

I hope me and my opponents will keep on playing for fun, because there's some balance issues here and there.

Oh, did I mention the MRL is still 50 points?

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loofnick

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:54 pm

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Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Sheffield, England

The Barrage Missile should probably just be cheaper- I wouldn't consider it at it's present cost. Not sure if it would be too powerful if it didn't scatter?

Multiple Rocket Launcher
Certainly the MRL is too good for it's points. I think this has been noticed before, but I don't know if there is a planned change in 5.1?
I haven't even used the present version as is, as it was obviously too good.

I agree that Shotgun mode is too powerful by comparison to normal. Doubling the diameter of the template gives 3.14 times more area coverage, but the shotgun is arguably still more then half the power of the normal mode. I guess 4BP would still make it slightly overpowered, and 2BP significantly under-powered.

If this is the way to go I would suggest 2 BP in shotgun (as this is a bonus mode, and should be less used?) and increase to 70 pts for the overall increase in power.EDIT 4 BP might be ok due to it being hard to actually cover 3 times the number of opponents.

However, missile barrages are normally not given save mods anyway in Netepic (I also thought the original intent for this weapon was to stop Space Marines having heavy artillery), so I'd suggest a move back to normal mode at 8BP, and make shotgun 2BP, and leave it at 50 pts.

Quake Cannon
While we're at it how about a cost increase for Quake Cannon? They're much more powerful now and are deadly against everything- with template and ignores cover they are much more effective then the Volcano against everything except titans. 100pts would not be unreasonably.

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primarch

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:03 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

I'll leave it up to you guys. I can live with your recommendations.

Primarch

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darkangel

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:39 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Kotrin @ Sep. 14 2007,13:21)

QUOTE

i think to bring all the different kinds of titan weapons in balance is very hard at all...

...look at the vortex and warp missle...in our epic group no one takes the vortex anymore...you need first fire, always scatter...and cost 25 points more...use a warp on advace, no scatter, 2 aiming is ok you taget the middle and hit a location for sure, no save and 2d6 in sum on the table...it is very sure to have a 6 in sum and te destruction of the titan...we always take the warp.

vortex is too expensive for this hard hitting procedure...you know the fact that the vortex can only use with first fire is very easy to react of this for the enemy...you can easily move your titan in cover on advance and shoot your selve with a warp and the vortex titan has no target...

honest..i am not a friend of these missles at all, becaue they can decide a battle in 2 minutes...so our last game...2 warp missles destroyed 2 warlord titans...bang bang and bye bye :cool:

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zap123

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:22 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Eh, luck of the draw though....I don't think I've ever successfully killed something with a Warp Missile. I fired one at a Warlord last week and missed entirely...125 points for naught. ?Barrage got detuned....not a bad thing IMO. ?The touching 2 other templates is the one change (IIRC) that seems a little excessive. ?Remember the IG can take 3 of these in a Deathstrike battery for a mere 250 points so I wouldn't make them too good though. ?

These 2 missiles are both gamblers weapons....you pay some points and sometimes they pay off big, and sometimes they fizzle. ?Hard to cost that.

If it wasn't a classic weapon I'd be happy enough to get rid of the Warp.

MRL did get a whole lot better in V5....but it was absolutely pointless before. ?Maybe make Shotgun mode have a TSM of +1 like the Gutbuster shot, or a ROF .5?

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Kotrin

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:32 pm

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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am
Posts: 168

The IG Deathstrike Battery is another unit that needs to be seriously reworked. Perhaps its cost should be 50 + the cost of missiles or something like that.

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darkangel

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:01 pm

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(Kotrin @ Sep. 17 2007,12:32)

QUOTE

The IG Deathstrike Battery is another unit that needs to be seriously reworked. Perhaps its cost should be 50 + the cost of missiles or something like that.

so do i think too! the deathstrike is to cheap for this blast!

1)
it is to hard to hit the missles in the air!

2)
at the latest in the second round they can reach all targets you want to!

there is only one chance for you...you have to win the initiative at shoot first with FF at the deathstrike. but therefore you need long weapon range and at least 3 attack dice!

i would go a step further and say they should cost 350 points or you have to change some rules. example the possibility to shoot them easier!

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zap123

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:45 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Well, I know the Deathstrike Battery was one unit that got voted on back in the day so I am reluctant to change it.

I also have second thoughts on the MRL....I think if anything we should make the Penetrating mode weaker. I'd be ok with making Pen 6BP and Shotgun 4BP.

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darkangel

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:31 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(zap123 @ Sep. 18 2007,00:45)

QUOTE

Well, I know the Deathstrike Battery was one unit that got voted on back in the day so I am reluctant to change it.

sorry zap that is no argument. it is a fact, that it is near to impossible to destroy missles while flying in the air and i think that the deathstrikes should be discussed again. either you rise the cost or just give the missles a kind of flyer ability or something like that. but 250 points for 2 warp and 1 barrage missle which can only be shoot...

1) only AA
2) FF
3) -2 to hit modifier

sorry zap, i think i am not megalomaniac if i say that there is room to discuss the deathstrike again.

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zap123

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:59 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
Posts: 3065
Location: Brisbane, Australia

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Personally I'd make it a unique special card, only allow it to fire 1 missile per turn and leave the cost as is. BTW, you can only take 1 Warp per battery, and can only choose between Warp, Barage and Harpoon. Also, it is only AA and at -2 to target the missile....it is the Deathstrike that must be on FF

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primarch

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:16 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

Deathstrikes are one shot weapons. Any increase in the ease of shooting them down, would make them virtually worthless. That was my experience in playtesting such variants. THe only real balancing you can do is restrict missile types and higher cost.

Thats about it.

Primarch

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darkangel

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:01 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
Posts: 470
Location: Germany

(zap123 @ Sep. 18 2007,07:59)

QUOTE

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. ?Personally I'd make it a unique special card, only allow it to fire 1 missile per turn and leave the cost as is. ?BTW, you can only take 1 Warp per battery, and can only choose between Warp, Barage and Harpoon. ?Also, it is only AA and at -2 to target the missile....it is the Deathstrike that must be on FF

you mean the deathstrike is no more a support, it is a special card? and only fire one missle per turn? sounds good to me. i think then the cost could stay and the rules to the flying missles too!

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primarch

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:47 am

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

Hi!

The deathstrike is still a support card. Its pretty expensive tough and a one shot weapon. In my experience an okay weapon, but hardly a super weapon.

Primarch

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darkangel

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:40 am

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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:55 am
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Location: Germany

(primarch @ Sep. 21 2007,03:47)

QUOTE

Hi!

The deathstrike is still a support card. Its pretty expensive tough and a one shot weapon. In my experience an okay weapon, but hardly a super weapon.

Primarch

you really think that we should not change anything due to the deathstrike?

i think the minimum we should do is to restric the firing of missles by 1 per turn per detachment.

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primarch

Post subject: Titan weapons balance

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:21 pm

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Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27069
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA

(darkangel @ Sep. 21 2007,01:40)

QUOTE

(primarch @ Sep. 21 2007,03:47)

QUOTE

Hi!

The deathstrike is still a support card. Its pretty expensive tough and a one shot weapon. In my experience an okay weapon, but hardly a super weapon.

Primarch

you really think that we should not change anything due to the deathstrike?

i think the minimum we should do is to restric the firing of missles by 1 per turn per detachment.

Hi!

Having used it a lot (some would say ABUSED it) over the years, I dont feel its to powerful.

Although, I do like the firing one missile per turn as an alternate optional rule.

Primarch

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