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Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:41 pm 
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(Kotrin @ Sep. 19 2007,14:02)
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Uh? I thought you were just suggesting that penetrating +N resulted in N extra wounds, as mm1145 suggested.

So a Volcano cannon would cause 4 wounds (1 + 3 extra) and would cause a critical hit on a 4+ on a leg, which, if occuring, would be resolved with a bonus of +3. This single hit would be likely to inflict 4 to 7 wounds and maybe half the titan CAF.

Bear in mind that CAF is halved if a leg is ripped, but also that a Titan with enough wounds is downed too.
Seems pretty powerful to me...


I think that the mm145 proposition on wich I based my suggestion could be a good compromise to weaken bio-titan but keep them strong enough to what they are dedicated to. Since the last days, so many propositions for the bio-titans were made that's not always easy to find wich is the best...

I checked on the different rules book to verify how many penetrating weapons armies can access, I checked Chaos, Eldar, Orks, IG, AM, SM, Taus, Tys. All have access to some pen weapons, thru standard units (did not find one for SM but I don't know if in the incoming version the sabre vehicule will be pen +1 or not) or titans support (for all of them).

The best solution to know if the proposition is good or not should be to test it...infortunately, I can't do it...


So, I'd say we have 3 solutions:

1?) current erratas penetration rule and unregenerable turn by turn wounds

2?) keep the old rule and reduce the number of wounds to 4 for the hierodule and 6 for hierophant (Ulmo)

3?) use the mm145 suggestion (extra wounds for penetrate weapons)

New proposition by Kotrin:

- Limit tentacles weapon to 1 per  bio-tians





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:55 pm 
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4?) leave Bio-Titans as they are. (okay, limit tentacles...  :) )

I don't see them overpowered in the first place. Hard to kill, no doubt, but very easy to weaken one way or another. An Imperial or Eldar Titan is very likely to keep its efficency until its complete destruction; a Bio-Titan has a good chance to see its movement reduced to 15cm, unable to enter difficult terrain, and its CAF halved on the first hit.

Bio-Titans are here to soak up firepower, why should we deny them this usage?





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:19 pm 
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Personnaly, I think the 3?) is fair for both sides and I'm OK to limit the tentacles.

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:35 pm 
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(scream @ Sep. 19 2007,13:41)
QUOTE
The best solution to know is the proposition is good or not should be to test it...infortunately, I can't do it...

OK we will test this when we will (at last) play ;)


One problem with the penetrating rule is that some units will be very efficient against Bio-titans (ignoring critical damage) :
7 Errant (one Household): 11.28 wounds
1 Stormblade (1st turn) : 4.59 wounds
1 Stormblade (next turns) : 1.10 wounds
Volcano cannon (p.e. ShadowSword) : 1.79 wounds


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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:45 pm 
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(Ulmo @ Sep. 19 2007,17:35)
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One problem with the penetrating rule is that some units will be very efficient against Bio-titans (ignoring critical damage) :
7 Errant (one Household): 11.28 wounds

Errants: their Close Combat attacks are Penetrating +2 not their shoots (referring to Errant description)

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:18 pm 
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(Ulmo @ Sep. 19 2007,16:35)
QUOTE

(scream @ Sep. 19 2007,13:41)
QUOTE
The best solution to know is the proposition is good or not should be to test it...infortunately, I can't do it...

OK we will test this when we will (at last) play ;)


One problem with the penetrating rule is that some units will be very efficient against Bio-titans (ignoring critical damage) :
7 Errant (one Household): 11.28 wounds
1 Stormblade (1st turn) : 4.59 wounds
1 Stormblade (next turns) : 1.10 wounds
Volcano cannon (p.e. ShadowSword) : 1.79 wounds

I have never had a problem with there being units with the a anti titan rolea shadowsward might kill bio titans easlty bit they prity much suck againts turmugents or geen stealers

(btw to add tomy spellingprobs I nowhave slightley defective keyboard(

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:42 pm 
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(scream @ Sep. 19 2007,14:19)
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Personnaly, I think the 3?) is fair for both sides and I'm OK to limit the tentacles.

3) is my favorite too! limit the tentacles to 1.


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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:50 am 
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The problem I have with 3) is it disadvantages Dominatrix/Harridan/Hive Queen which IMO are fine the way they are.  The only unit in the Tyranids list that people are concerned about (except Kotrin) are the Bio-Titans.

I'm not sure why 3) is considered better.  The net result against a bio-titan in most instances is the same or worse using 3), and 1) doesn't affect the other critters......

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:30 am 
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(zap123 @ Sep. 20 2007,00:50)
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that is a good point zap!

3) would be unfair for harridan and dominantrix at all and would not change things due to the bio titan if you compare 1) and 3)

by the way, i do not know why we discuss the new rule for penetraiting against bio titans again?

we have needed a long time to do so. fact is, that we changed the rules because the bio titan was the problem not the dominatrix and the new rules bring the bio titan back in game and in balance. so keep it like it is!


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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:16 am 
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Then, we could choose 3 but only for bio-titans (ie, models with a hit location template), couldn't we?

Currently, the Regeneration paragraph is located under the Tyranid Bio-Titan entry, not the Dominatrix one. We could certainly move this special rule for penetrating weapons to the paragraph explaining critical hits for Bio-Titans.





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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:19 am 
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Hi!

I guess its time for primarch to "weigh in".... :;):

Okay, for YEARS people have complained to me on how difficult it is to stop bio-titans. Sorry Kotrin, but your the only person so far who thinks they aren't overpowered. Even me, who is VERY conservative about changing units, agree that SOMETHING needs to be done.

Of course the question is WHAT?

One thing I have to leave CRYSTAL clear. The original GW rules... SUCKED. IT was obvious they weren't tested and meshed poorly with the rest of the rules. We've been trying to make a workable solution ever since. The original netepic modifications were pretty good, but YEARS of playtest data has shown three glaring problems:

1. Number of hive mind cards. Compared to what other armies may generate, its a little too few. I believe the modification will increase that in a conservative manner and so this issue seems to be "patched".
2. Regeneration. Its a PAIN IN THE BUTT!! :p This is because until tyranids multi-wound creatures DID NOT EXIST. SO how do you mesh this concept with the rest of the rules? More on that later.
3. Bio-titans. In one unit you get the worst possible rules nightmare. Template unit, multi-wounds and regeneration all in one. NO WONDER its a pain to deal with. TOO MANY special conflicting rules.

The best way to tackle things is two determine expectations of the unit then modify rules to suit them while maintaining balance.

So I want opinions on these two things:

1. What is the role of the bio-titan? You can break it down in what are its strengths and weaknesses.
2. What should regeneration accomplish? When is it applicable and when not? Can it be negated (by ability, power or weapon) or not?

Be as specific as possible.

One I determine what are the groups expectations and definitions, THEN we can make a competent ruling.

Welcome to tyranid revision 6.0...... :p

Oh, and please concentrate ALL tyranid related things on this thread only, so as to make it easier for it to be compiled.

I await the responses.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:32 am 
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(primarch @ Sep. 21 2007,04:19)
QUOTE

i do not know what we are talking about!

i remember that i have started the discussion. the result of this long discussion was that all agreed that the bio titan is to hart to beat! we discussed NO OTHER model!

now we have changed the rules due to fighting against bio titans and i think it is well done

i informed our epic group and all agreed with the new rules even our tyranid player! i do not know why we start this seesaw!

my last state to this never ending story:
keep the new rules penetraiting vs. bio titans and close this case!


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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:09 am 
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I'm with Darkangel.  As far as I'm concerned it's all sorted.  The Tyranid list in general gets some extra units, some corrections, extra hive mind cards, and their Bio Titans become SLIGHTLY easier to deal with using ranged combat.  They are far from NEUTERED as has been insinuated, but now have to be a little cautious around some weapons systems.....like most other things need to.  These MINOR ammendments were quite heavily discussed before Kotrin weighed in and consensus had long been reached.  As Darkangel said, case closed.  

I wonder if he's read the Tau list :D

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:37 am 
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(When Primach weights in I feel the waves... :) )

Scream tried to formulate some proposals above and the 3rd one attracted some consensus - scream, mm145 and even darkangel seemed to agree - and I find it acceptable too.

Now, when darkangel writes that "keep the new rules penetrating vs. bio titans" and zap123 that "As far as I'm concerned it's all sorted", I'm a bit lost over the rule they have in mind: is it the pen+X bonus to get a critical/one regeneration attempt, or Scream's proposal #3? If the former, I don't agree, if the latter, well, it's sorted for me too.

The original point was to write multi-wound and regeneration rules so they combine elegantly should they need to, and could be included in the core book. There are many multi-wound creatures here and there and several regenerating ones too, and more to come (wait for me to release the Necron list... :) ) so this core book definition makes sense. I think I managed to achieve a suitable paragraph for those rules in earlier pages of this thread, maybe Ulmo can confirm. But it all boils down to the way we want Bio-Titan to be played.

If we consider scream's third proposal as an acceptable common ground, we can move forward.

Now, regarding Bio-Titans, the Tyranid list and the metagame balance, I could write endlessly on the matter but I don't think it would be of interest to all people here. Perhaps I should switch to email to people interested.

(wait for me to open the debate on the Tau list - another can of worms!)

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 Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:06 am 
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To sort things a bit, here's a summary of what I propose. I've integrated remarks from Ulmo and really did my best...  :)

CORE BOOK

Special Ability: Wounds
Some creatures are so tough that they will not die on the first damage. These are represented as having a wound characteristic.
Against a shooting attack, place a wound marker next to such a model each time it fails its armor save. Creatures with multiple wounds suffer more damage from Close Combat than from shooting attacks. A creature with multiple wounds will suffer 1 wound for each point it loses a Close Combat.
Some weapons or abilities slay the target outright. In the case of creatures with wounds, these weapons inflict as many wounds as the model's wound characteristic.
When a unit has accumulated as many wound markers as its wound characteristic or more, it is destroyed.

Special Ability: Regeneration
These units are able to heal or repair themselves. Unless otherwise stated, They have a wound characteristic of 1. See "Wounds" special ability for the manner wounds are inflicted. A Regenerating unit may never receive more wounds than its wound characteristic from a single attack, whether shooting or close combat. Yet, there is no upper limit to the number of wound markers on a regenerating creature.
When such unit should be destroyed because of cumulative wounds, put it on the side: it is not immediately removed from play but counts as downed and can be further wounded. While downed, the creature cannot move, fire, nor use psychic powers. It rolls no dice in Close Combat, using only its base CAF when fighting attackers. Apart from those differences, shooting and close combat are resolved as usual.
During the End Phase the creature may recover. Roll a D6 for each wound marker and remove it on a roll of 4+. If the number of wound markers remaining is equal or greater than the wound characteristic, then the regenerating creature is finally removed from play; otherwise, it stands up and can resume fighting.
If a regenerating unit is damaged by an ethereal psychic attack, it is irrevocably destroyed as these attacks usually do not leave anything behind to regenerate.

Special Ability: Structure Points and Autorepair
Some units are able to withstand an impressive amount of damage, and even to repair their own structure as regenerating creatures do. Structure Points and Autorepair special abilitiy work exactly the same way than Wounds and Regeneration, but refer to Inorganic units instead.

TYRANID BOOK
Bio-titan paragraph, change Regeneration and Hit location template rules to the following:

Critical hits
Bio-titans do not have shields, instead relying on their natural armor and toughness as well as multiple wounds for protection. Bio-titans are regenerating, multi-wound creatures and follow usual rules for both. Any wounding hit may also cause critical damage. On hit location templates, the numbers listed in the individual locations are not Armor values but the chance of a critical hit. When firing at a Bio-titan follow these steps:
1) Declare fire, roll To-Hit and scatter the shot normally. Unless the shot scatters off the template, use the Overall Armor Value for the given facing (front, side, etc). If you penetrate the armor you do one wound to the Bio-titan.
2) Look at the location and roll a D6. If you?ve rolled equal or over the critical hit number for that location, you?ve done a critical hit.
A critical hit allows a roll on the location damage table. This may yield additional wounds to the Bio-titan and/or special damage, like CAF or movement penalties. Apart from extra wound counters, special damage are not cumulative: for a given location, only the worst special damage applies. For example, if Bio-titan left leg is both "damaged" and "heavily damaged", the movement rate is reduced by 10 cm. All Special damage in a given location may be regenerated in the end phase by rolling on a single die as much as the target number to inflict a critical hit. Hence, a leg ripped away will grow again on a 4+, a weapon blown off will grow again on a 5+, a Head nerve core damage will be healed on a 6, and so on. Additional wound markers received through critical hits are not removed this way; they just add up to the ones already received by the creature and are removed through usual regeneration rules.

Penetrating weapons
Penetrating weapons have a greater effect on Bio-titans. A Penetrating +X weapon adds X wounds each times it damages a Bio-titan. Chances to get a critical hit are not affected, but the penetrating bonus applies to all rolls on a location damage table as usual.

Legs
Bio-titans have four legs. Each count as a different location even if they share the same damage table. Movement penalties are therefore cumulative as long as different legs are affected: "damaging" the left front leg and "heavily damaging" the right front leg will reduce the titan movement by 15 cm. Each leg location special damage may be regenerated separately. Keep track of the status of each leg to know how far the Bio-titan is able to move.

Hit location tables:
pg 15: "Hieropant Template", should be Hierophant Template
Weapon 2-4 text becomes "The weapon is smashed by the hit, inflicting 1 extra wound. The weapon may not fire until regenerated."
Head 1-2 text becomes "If able to move, the Bio-titan staggers..."
Head 3-4: remove last sentence.
Leg 5: "Its CAF is halved..." and not "It's CAF is halved..."
Thorax 6 text becomes "The thorax is deeply punctured and starts to pour out body fluids inflicting D6 wounds now and D6 wounds in every Orders Phase, until regenerated."
Hierophant Abdomen 4-5: The abdomen is impaled, inflicting 1 extra wound. Troop stands being carried must make a saving throw or be destroyed. Survivors are disgorged as in 1-3 (above).
Hierophant Abdomen 6: The abdomen is slashed open and body fluids gush out, inflicting D3 extra wounds.  Troop stands being carried must make a saving throw or be destroyed. Survivors are disgorged as in 1-3 (above).
(there is no difference between "must make a saving throw or be destroyed" and "are hit with 0 TSM" so one variant should be removed)

I hope it clears things a bit...  :blush:





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