Maybe unless an aircraft transport is landing beside them.
In this case, an usual shoot should be permitted (snap fire with no further penalty when the transport lands, before releasing units so destruction kills transported units).

I would not understand why the fliers that lands would become harder to hit to AA unit than standard units. This choice would be really hard to defend.

I understand the -1 for evasive pattern to give more chance to fliers to land without any damage but AA units are made to destroy fliers.

A question: a thunderhawk just pass over a thunderfire battery and plans to land on the ground behind the AA battery. With the -1 to be hit, the battery could only hit on 6+ hits. Behind the thunderfire battery, I have a non-activated thunderers detachment with FF order(each has 3 attack dices/5+/-1). Can I activate this detachment just at the moment the flier land and before the transport disembark the troops inside and jut have the -1 to hit for snap firing grounded units ?

Edit, sorry, my example retakes what Ulmo was asking for, I understood his example a bit lately.

_________________
Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

sigh, this point gives me a headache in almost every game. When it lands, it has to descent, so at one point the transport will fly low, and therefore the -25 wouldn't apply, would they?

maybe this was the original intend of the evasive pattern:

flyer lands, so it is flying low (at some point) and all units can fire at normal range, so lets give em a -1 to hit ?  

Nape of the Earth... don't transports fly nape of the earth using cover in an attempt to avoid most AA/Flak. While flying in this way they are flying evasively. (How can you fly evasively against modern weapons while out in the open, unless you are out of range.) However, when they are landing they are quite simply exposed for a short time... that's why the troops are trained to jump out quick and let the aircraft take off again.

However, I would be very concerned if transports became too easy to target. I think -2 isn't too bad. A bail out roll may be an option too as it's only when they are coming in to drop off troops that they are exposed... but maybe not?

Perhaps transport craft with jump pack troops should still get the -3 to hit as they are less exposed, the troops being better equipped to get out without the transport having actually landed... It also provides a distinct advantage to taking Jump Troops over straight infantry units.

EDIT: I know someone will trot out the "Ah, but that's in real life and this is a game" argument. This is just observations placed in an effort to help understand how the rules could be described to the player in order for the rules to do what we want them to... if you want them to.

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Perhaps it should be easier to hit a flyer that is landing? I mean they cant really fly that fast in the end of their movement anyways. I think it would be easier to hit a harrier in the process of trying to land than a f-15 strafing the treetops in full speed. Against the harrier you would have a few seconds to actually aim and against the f-15 you would just shoot and try go get lucky..

/P-man

_________________
"Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". " Major General Chesty Puller, USMC

Perhaps transport craft with jump pack troops should still get the -3 to hit as they are less exposed, the troops being better equipped to get out without the transport having actually landed... It also provides a distinct advantage to taking Jump Troops over straight infantry units.

_________________
"Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". " Major General Chesty Puller, USMC

Shouldnt it be possible for Jumppack troops to exit a flyer without the need to land. I mean isnt it just to open the door and jump out? - Cowabunga!!!

You don't get the evasive pattern thingie

_________________
"Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". " Major General Chesty Puller, USMC

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to explicitly remove the Flying High bonus from a transport that is landing troops.

@Sanjuro - in case no one else pointed it out, AA units suffer no penalty for Snap Fire.

_________________
Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

@ zap: Yeah, makes sense.

AA on snap fire: Yes, I am aware of that. But it's still 6+ for the hunters when a transport is landing, isn't it?

Yeah, it is.  

It would be good if someone came up with a great idea for Fighters on charge to have some chance of intercepting a transport that still fit in with the rest of the rules and were fair.  So far my ideas have been clunky and would probably spell the end of transports.  (e.g if a Fighter on charge ends its movement in base to base with a transport on First Fire they may fire their non-barrage weapons, with the normal -1 for evasive manouvres.)  I'd hate to be the one to kill the Thunderhawk  

_________________
Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

I tried something similar but found everything "cluncky" too. How about flyers fending off fighters getting defencive shots with any and all turret weapons... just like the Flying Fotress against fighters in WWII.

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

We did mess around with a PD rating for bombers/mega flyers to represent their defensive turrets...probably the best solution we came up with so far, but would need a re-write of a bunch of unit stats.  

Still doesn't help them stop a transport from diving for the dirt and unloading.  With the current mechanics, timing of movement and the unpinnability of flyers, all my attemps end up icky.

_________________
Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Just trying to throw up some ideas that may... or may not be of some help or may even be a new direction.

"Interceptor" Special Ability for certain lightly armed and fast/high Caf Fighters. The ability to "pounce" (react instantly) to aircraft on a bombing/strafing or transport run. Units remain off table but can be called onto the table (anywhere) by the owning player to intercept attacking enemy aircraft in the movement phase on the roll of a 3+. (Like a standing Combat Air Patrol. The 3+ roll represents the fact they may be dealing with other things or out of position an unable to reach the target in time.) The enemy aircraft that are attacking may use their PD and Turret weapons ONLY against such an attack with a -1 to hit modifier due to the Interceptors speed (In the Movement phase... as Snap Fire). If the Intercepting Fighters survive then a Close Combat is carried out immediately and all casualties removed.

Jetpack troops or similar carried in Transports may attempt to bail out of a destroyed transport on a 4+ (no modifier) but may not help in the close combat.

Failed Intercept rolls may be taken again in the next turn. You may roll for each Interceptor squadron you have taken per turn. Once you have successfully attacked with a Squadron of Interceptors they are spent and head for base to refuel/rearm. Like the Off Table Barrage this is a one shot deal per squadron.

One Squad (Only one squad) of Interceptors may be called in to Intercept the enemies Interceptors... like a fighter escort spoiling the Interceptors attack dive. In such cases... The Bomber/Strafer or Transport PD + Turret defence roll is taken First. Surviving Attacking Interceptors carry out their Close Combat against the Bomber/Strafer/Transport but with half their Caf (The Interceptors attack has been spoiled by enemy fighter activity). Surviving Attacking and Enemy Interceptors then carry out a Close Combat without penalty (Dog Fight... I don't know if the Enemy Intercepts should get a bonus... an extra D6 to Caf sounds too much when they already caused an effect). After this both squads of surviving Interceptors break the engagement and returning to base... if any are left. Any Surviving Bomber/Strafer/Transports get to do their thing now.

AA would act normally, either in the movement phase as Snap Fire before the Interceptors appear or after the interceptors leave in the First Fire phase.

Now, I know this is long winded... as I have it... but I'm sure it can be shortened. However, thoughts? How deadly is this for Bomber/Strafer/Transports?

_________________
My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

hmm, some nice ideas, warhead!

imo, transport should have a hard time to land as long as theres AA in range. This does work to a certain extend. If we take away the 25cm bonus for landing transports, it should be fine. and you can always try to fly low, depending on the terrain.  

alas, I miss the days when there was only the Thunderhawk, no other flyers and no AA. ...