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Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard

 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:20 pm 
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Managed to grab another game of NetEpic last night with Kev my regular gaming partner.  Trying to keep him interested in Epic as he's slipping towards the darkside of 40k  :(

He fielded his Ultramarine army once more and had his usual amount of poor dice rolls.  Worked out as as another very close game though.

Basic set up was hills down the right flank, woods at top of left of battlefield and then a large imperial city in the middle of the map spreading towards the left flank and bottom of battlefield.  I set up scenery so Kev choose to deploy at top of map near woods and hills, he then had an easy and covered advance down into the city and the majority of the objectives which were there.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Forces.

Marine

Battle Co
Land Raider Co
Reaver
Thunderhawk
Dreadnoughts
Terminators
Vindicators
Whirlwinds
Tech marine
Hunters

IG

Leman Russ co
Stormhammer co
Valkyries
Vultures
Inquisitor
Heavy platoon
Ogryn
Hellhounds
Whirlwinds
Leviathan
Shadowsword

Turn 1

Marine Thunderhawk is intercepted by Vultures and killed after it fights off and destroys one of the intercepting craft.

All forces advance towards the imperial city in an attempt to capture the objectives.

First fire is minimal and causes no damage (depsite my whirlwinds hitting his tech marine and rhino, he made the saves!)

EVerything is out of range really apart from my Leviathan which lands it's Doomday cannon shot on his hunters, destroying one.





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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:43 pm 
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Turn 2

My aircraft start their advance over the battlefield towards the back of the marine forces, hoping to catch the elite forces unaware.  Four AA missiles streak upto meet the advancing Valkyries but they miss the intended targets.

The Reaver charges over the battlefield after Kev reveals his Titan mission for the game, Blitzkrieg! His stops agonisingly short of the middle and I spend the rest of my movement phase bringing weapons to bear on the formidable machine.

First fire leads to my leman russ company stripping the reaver of it's void shields.  We had a stand off in the middle of the battlefield at this point where neither of us wanted to advance our tanks over the no man's land on advance orders as we expected the other to be waiting on fire fire orders!  As such we both sat there in a kind of stalemate waiting for the other to move...

The reaver stripped of it's shields was the perfect target for the shadowsword I had purchased (sorry not on list!) , I start off with the lascannons and score one hit on the head, a 2+ save required, Kev rolls a 1!! Rolling for damage I roll a 6 and the brave titan hits the ground hard once more..

Now I tend not to use Titan's that much but Kev loves the models, what can we do to make them a bit more long lived??  Tactics anyone?  I've read Primarch's tacticus on them but it still doesn't stop them dying..

Turn 3

My valkries land the heavy platoon, inquisitor and ogryn's on to of the number 5 objective to try and wrest it form the terminators who had camped there in the last turn.

My vultures move forward in support and duck in behind some buldings.

Nearly all Kev's forces and the majority of mine are now in the city and there is a large no man's land to the right of it before the hills.

My hellhounds have advanced and are caught in a cross fire between devastators and land raiders, one dies to the land raiders of the terminators.

No real action apart form that in this turn.  Everything is set up for the last turn though.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:54 pm 
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Turn 4

The Ogryn's charge the terminators, the heavy platoon go on first fire.  The leman russ's advance over the no man's land and the storm hammers finally make it towards the front line.

Knowing that each has the ability to break the others company's and achieve a win it all comes down to the order of first fire.

My leman russ detachment 1 opens up on the land raider co, destrying 1, counter fire destroys 1 of my tanks in a different detachment, reducing their capabilities.  This style of firing at un activated units became the norm during the game as we both fought for a slim advantage.

By the ends of the first fire phase Kev had managed to kill 4 leman russ's whilst I'd killed 4 land raiders so pretty even.  The leviathan rescued me though and killed a hunter and the tech marine so a few VP's there.

The lat remaining hunter killed two valkyries and a tactical squad managed to pin point shoot a hellhound causing the other one to flee after seeing it's colleague brew up.

The terminators mowed down the ogryn in the first fire stage and then killed the last two in the CC phase!

In the advance phase the vultures managed to kill two land raiders and break that co..  The storm hammers were also able to kill off some terminators breaking the detachment.   Kev's vindicators killed the HQ Stormhammer and a couple of shots from the devastators bounced off the remaining super heavies..

Again in the final phase kev had come very close to getting a draw once more.  The vultures / valkyries / leman russes and storm hammer only needed one more casualty on them to break each formation. Plus it would have left him in command of three objectives.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:05 pm 
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Now I tend not to use Titan's that much but Kev loves the models, what can we do to make them a bit more long lived??  Tactics anyone?  I've read Primarch's tacticus on them but it still doesn't stop them dying..


My typical loadout on a Reaver is a pair of Volcanos and either a Warp Missile or a MRL.  With 100cms range you can stay away from the sort of massed fire (medium tanks co., heavy co., Devestators, Exarchs) that can strip its' shields quickly.  As long as you have shields, you're safe (well, mostly).  Also, don't let a Shadowsword see you is a good tip :)

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:29 pm 
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(Enderel @ Aug. 03 2006,11:43)
QUOTE
Now I tend not to use Titan's that much but Kev loves the models, what can we do to make them a bit more long lived?? ?Tactics anyone? ?I've read Primarch's tacticus on them but it still doesn't stop them dying..

I've been tinkering with a revised damage table, based on d10 instead of d6. I've never really liked the fact that you could possibly kill a Titan so easily after stripping it of its void shields. Maybe this (and a call for Incoming! articles) will give me enough incentive to complete it. ?:p

EDIT: Thanks for the Bat Rep.  :cool:





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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:40 pm 
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I don't really like the way the damage-tables essentially allow the enemy to shoot the most vulnerable bits of a titan by default. A volcano cannon shooting at the head has about a 44% chance to direct-hit on the head if it connects. And the adjacent places on a Warlord are all either Weapon or Reactor slots except straight upwards... So you essentially have about a 16% chance to miss. And an 84% chance to hit an important part of the titan. With a -4 save-mod almost any part you hit is guaranteed to fail it's saving throw (Even the 1+ areas are saving at 5+ at that point!) and with Piercing +3 you're looking at only needing a 2 to instantly destroy a Warlord if you DO hit it's head. And a 3+ against a weapon means not only do you lose the weapon, but you  ALSO take damage back against eithre the reactor or the head which is, again, almost guaranteed to either cripple or kill the titan. Two or three Shadowswords can kill an unshielded Warlord in a single firing phase, it seems to me, without even trying... And the rules for LoS to titans makes them virtually impossible to hide too. Something like an Ordinatus Armageddon is basically guaranteed to kill any unshielded titan it happens to shoot at instantly on the Imperial side. I love Titans in general, but these rules seem like they'd make them extremely fragile and easy to destroy, since even a single hit against many of them has a very real chance to kill them almost no matter how weak the attack is.


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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:46 pm 
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Hi!

Ever since AT titans have been kind of vulnerable.

We have increased the saves in some cases (especially the warlord) and even increased the repair rolls.

All in all once the shields are stripped your in for trouble.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:56 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 03 2006,14:40)
QUOTE
I don't really like the way the damage-tables essentially allow the enemy to shoot the most vulnerable bits of a titan by default.

Welcome to "Old School" Epic.  :D

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:11 pm 
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(Dwarf Supreme @ Aug. 03 2006,14:56)
QUOTE

(Ilushia @ Aug. 03 2006,14:40)
QUOTE
I don't really like the way the damage-tables essentially allow the enemy to shoot the most vulnerable bits of a titan by default.

Welcome to "Old School" Epic. ?:D

Well I wouldn't mind it so much if the rate of scatter and the distance scattered was a little more variable. Something like dice which were 'Blank, Blank, UP 1, Up 2, Down 1, Down 2' and 'Blank, Blank, Right 1, Right 2, Left 1, Left 2' would be neat. That would mean it'd be more likely for a shot to deviate way off course. And make shooting out things like head-units much less likely for most weapons. Or even if it was just 2 blanks on each dice. Meaning there's a 4/36 or roughly 11% chance for your shot to land on-target I'd be fine with it. But as it is even a Battlecannon has a reasonable chance to cripple or kill a Warlord in a single shot. Especially a unit of russes all going after it at once. IG with a Russ Company costs them about as much as an empty Warlord hull does. And averages about 1 penetrating hit even against the 1+ head-armor on a Warlord. And there's a quite reasonable chance to either cripple the unit's ability to fire/fight or destroy it with that one hit (About 1/3 to destroy it). Due in large part to a combination of the armor-save mods and the way that the template works.

That said: I do like the general rule system for the setting. And the way that the enemies can blow bits off a titan is neat, I just wish it were a little less easy to go 'I shoot your head off. You die.' in a single shot. It's also really silly to think about something like a Leman Russ trying to kill a Warlord. It would be like an Abrams trying to kill an Iowa. It's shells would barely even dent the defenses, let alone do enough damage to seriously harm it.


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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:14 pm 
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Hi!

If anyone has an alternate system they'd like to try let me know, we have come up with some over the years, but they havent been too good.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:18 pm 
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I had been contemplating some kind of random part determining system (SOmething like a random dice-roll to find where you hit) unless you're attacking the thing in melee. Essentially it's very hard to pick out a specific body-part, even on something as large as a titan, at range. But you get up close and it's easy.

The other possibility I was thinking of was making Titans count TSMs as less then they actually are (Say make all TSMs against Titans be 1-2 points worse then they are. To a minimum of 0.) meaning that weapons like Volcano Cannons would still be capable of punching holes in titans, but lesser weapons like lascannons and battle cannons would usually just bounce harmlessly off the hull unless the person using them got extremely lucky.

But I don't have anything really resembling a complete set of rules for it (And I've got extremely little experience with NetEpic so I'm probably not the best person to ask about it!).


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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:33 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 03 2006,15:18)
QUOTE
I had been contemplating some kind of random part determining system (SOmething like a random dice-roll to find where you hit) unless you're attacking the thing in melee. Essentially it's very hard to pick out a specific body-part, even on something as large as a titan, at range. But you get up close and it's easy.

That's about how Adeptus Titanicus worked.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:56 am 
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(zap123 @ Aug. 03 2006,17:05)
QUOTE
Now I tend not to use Titan's that much but Kev loves the models, what can we do to make them a bit more long lived?? ?Tactics anyone? ?I've read Primarch's tacticus on them but it still doesn't stop them dying..


My typical loadout on a Reaver is a pair of Volcanos and either a Warp Missile or a MRL. ?With 100cms range you can stay away from the sort of massed fire (medium tanks co., heavy co., Devestators, Exarchs) that can strip its' shields quickly. ?As long as you have shields, you're safe (well, mostly). ?Also, don't let a Shadowsword see you is a good tip :)

Yeah he did kind of curse when he noticed that my shadowsword was in front of his Reaver after set up.  Couple of painful experiences previously had taght him to keep away from them.

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 Post subject: Battle Rep - Marine Vs Imperial Guard
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:03 am 
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(Ilushia @ Aug. 03 2006,20:11)
QUOTE
Well I wouldn't mind it so much if the rate of scatter and the distance scattered was a little more variable. Something like dice which were 'Blank, Blank, UP 1, Up 2, Down 1, Down 2' and 'Blank, Blank, Right 1, Right 2, Left 1, Left 2' would be neat. That would mean it'd be more likely for a shot to deviate way off course. And make shooting out things like head-units much less likely for most weapons. Or even if it was just 2 blanks on each dice. Meaning there's a 4/36 or roughly 11% chance for your shot to land on-target I'd be fine with it. But as it is even a Battlecannon has a reasonable chance to cripple or kill a Warlord in a single shot. Especially a unit of russes all going after it at once. IG with a Russ Company costs them about as much as an empty Warlord hull does. And averages about 1 penetrating hit even against the 1+ head-armor on a Warlord. And there's a quite reasonable chance to either cripple the unit's ability to fire/fight or destroy it with that one hit (About 1/3 to destroy it). Due in large part to a combination of the armor-save mods and the way that the template works.

That said: I do like the general rule system for the setting. And the way that the enemies can blow bits off a titan is neat, I just wish it were a little less easy to go 'I shoot your head off. You die.' in a single shot. It's also really silly to think about something like a Leman Russ trying to kill a Warlord. It would be like an Abrams trying to kill an Iowa. It's shells would barely even dent the defenses, let alone do enough damage to seriously harm it.

When I go after a Titan I tend not to fire at anything else that turn at all. ?All my fire is concentrated on that one target to try and cripple it.

In this last game I used a complete Leman Russ Company (550pts) and a shadowsword (225pts) to try and kill the Reaver (425pts). ?So ?I'd have expected to kill it or at least damage it. ?I'd have thrown other things at it if it hadn't gone down as well, my Leviathan was easily within range with it's Doomsday cannon, lascannons and battlecannon.


Maybe Titan's should count as Elite so that they get a re roll to stop this sort of fluke hit with smaller weapons.   I think this would be the best bet as it wouldn't interfer to much with the state of the game. Suggestions?

For Pure Titan Legion armies you could also offer them a Princip (?) abilities like in Titan legions.

An example would be  50 pts or so that gives them the ability to reduce the damage on a damage table by 2 once in the battle.





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