Howdy,

1. Yes i would consider bumping their movement up, i would need to recompute my point system to make changes like that though as i based all my points off the 5cm incriments.
2. I originally had wood elves at 40cm range but thought it would be a little overpowered so i gave them the ranged piercing ability. With playtesting it could be moved forward.
3. I have a standard infantry stat for, core, veteran, and elite. And then do additions or subtractions based on race and percieved quality. i then add skills and traits. armor is based off what they have, or if they are percieved to be more agile then a basic trooper.

Blind-

Wartorn Beta Rules Questions and Suggestions from First Playtest of the Rules

In my first game of the Wartorn Rules I playtested an Undead Army versus a host of Orcs and Goblins at 1500 points.

The Armies

The Undead Army
Vampire Lord armed with an Exotic Weapon and Soul of an Innocent Charm
Necromancer 1 with a Soul of an Innocent and the following Spells: Wither, Decay and Animate Dead
Necromancer 2 with a Soul of an Innocent and the following Spells: Wither, Decay and Animate Dead
1 x Formation of Skeleton Archers
2 x Formations of Skeletons armed with Spears
1 x Formation of Skeletons armed with Hand Weapons
2 x Formations of Wight Cavalry

The Orc and Goblin Horde
Orc Warlord with an Exotic Weapon and Orc Glyphs
Orc Shaman with Orc Glyphs and the following Spells: Face Punch, Bigger Than You Think and Grosh is with Us.
2 x Formations of Goblin Spears
1 x Formation of Orc Archers
2 x Formations of Orc Warriors
2 x Formations of Orc Boar Cavalry

During this battle I made a number of notes and some suggestions, please see below. I think I made a number of assumptions, but if a totally new person read the rules and tried t play a battle (ie a non-wargamer) I think they would be confused. A seasoned Tournament or Lawyeristic type (I think many wargamers know of the type of wargamer I am alluding to here) of player would be able to twist some of the rules into something that had not been intended. Some clarification would make the rules clear.

1. Deployment Zones. In a normal non-scenario based battle, how far apart should Armies be deployed from each other? For a 4 turn game, I found 60cm too far apart (keeping in mind one Army was Undead who are not allowed to conduct March Moves). Should it be closer to 40cm apart?

2. Does Player 1 moves all of his troops/conjure spells/Shoot in his Command phase then proceed to his combat phase, or do players take it in turns to activate one formation at a time, going through the Command phase then take turns to alternate the Combat phase one Formation at a time? I went with Player 1 conducts all of his Command Phase, then conducts his Combat Phase in an order he determined; then., Player 2 had his Command Phase and subsequent Combat Phase.

3. Spells – Undead Spell Animate Dead. Does this spell increase a Formations wounds/Stands during the battle, or does it replace wounds/Stands previously during the battle? I took it as replacing previously lost wounds/Stands. I did not use it in the battle, I found casting Wither and Decay more beneficial, but I think the spell is still useful. Probably if the casting value was slightly lower I would have attempted it, Health 2 Skeleton Stands do not last long. I do like that there is a separate casting value to replace Wight casualties.

4. Command Phase. Most of the Undead Army only needed to conduct one of the four basic moves. Does a Formation have to take a Command Test in order to make a basic move, if so why? There is no penalty for failing this, as the commander of the Formation can still get the Formation to conduct one of the basic moves anyway. Similarly, if a character uses his Command value to order a Formation to conduct a Move of some description, there is no penalty to the character of formation if the Command Test is failed, this failure only disrupts “Special Moves” requiring a Formation to change formation or March Move etc.

a. Suggest – a failed Command Test means the units does not move;
b. If a Character was issuing an order to a Formation and the Command Test was failed, the Character cannot move, cast Spells nor issue another Command to any more Formations during that Command Phase. This forces Characters to not just be spell casters or incredibly tough fighting units, they now have a real command presence. Introduce a third Character, a Captain or Lieutenant who is a Commander, as opposed to most Magic Users. Generals and Captains/Lieutenants would then command Formations, Spellcasters would focus on casting spells, but could (depending on Army type) also command Formations at the risk of not being able to cast Spells (if they have not already cast any spells during that Command Phase).
c. Units with the Berserker and/or Blood Lust special rule Must charge the closest enemy Formation if they within Charge range if they fail a Command Test.

5. What is the Shooting Arc of a Stand of Archers/missile armed troops. Is it 180 degrees extending from the front of their Stand? Can Skirmishers and/or Scouts shoot 360 degrees. Missile Armed Cavalry (Light Cavalry), can they also shoot 360 degrees (note I have suggested that the Dread Elf Outriders only have 2 shots per stand, but that they should have a 360 degree arc of fire)How many Stands behind the first Stand can shoot (Exotic Ranged Weapons can only shoot from the first rank of Stands in Formation). For example, can a Formation of 6 Skeleton Archers deployed in a one Stand wide column, 6 Stands deep all shoot at the target that the first Stand can see and is in range of; or can only stands within actual range of the target Formation shoot?

6. Does occupying a hill/higher ground grant an advantage in melee to the Formation higher than it’s enemy? Should it be +1 for per Stand in actual base to base combat or just +1 per formation in the melee which is actually on higher ground than its enemy?

7. Charges. I think this needs to be defined. I assumed that once a Formation touched an enemy formation, because they had been ordered to charge them, that the charging unit would then wheel and line up to conform to the facing of the enemy unit, ie each stand lines up in base to base contact so that there are no overlapping bits. Both Formations have their Stands in the front rank lined up exactly together. Does the smaller Formation have to line up with the Larger Formation, regardless of who Charged? Do Skirmishers/Scouts/Light Formations have to line up with Medium/Heavy Formations regardless of who Charged? This represents the Larger/Heavier Formations using their impetus to force the smaller/lighter Formation to react to their charge.

8. Flank Charges. I think this needs to be defined. Is a Flank Charged based upon where the charging Formation actually moves into the target Formation, or does it depend on where the charging Formation was in relation to the target Formation before the charge was commenced? Does a charging Formation wanting to conduct a Flank charge have to be behind a line extending from the front of the Stands in the first rank of the target formation?




For example, assuming they are in range and a Command Test was passed (please refer to diagram above, the arrow shows the front facing of the formations), could Formation 1 charge into the flank of Formation Z? Or, could Formation 2 be the only Formation able to Flank Charge Formation Z, as they can see Formation Z, and they have started their turn completely behind the front of Formation Z’s first rank of Stand?

9. There seems to be no morale/shock system for casualties sustained due to Shooting or Magic. I propose the following to take mass casualties sustained as a result of Shooting or Magic:
a. If a Stand is removed due to taking enough casualties as a result of a Shooting attack or the result of a Magical Attack, a Formation must take a Command Test. If they pass they are Demoralised, if they fail they will withdraw 1d6cm per 5cm of their movement value.
b. This would also mean that the number of shooting attacks allowed per stand of missile armed Formations needs to be addressed. I think that the number of Shooting Attacks is too high. Most Missile armed Formations should be restricted to 2 Shooting attacks per stand in the front rank only, with a +1 Attack die per Stand in the second Rank only. Wood Elves would get 3 Shooting Attacks for the First Rank, +1 for the second rank and retain their Ranged Piercing Attack special rule. High Elves would have the same stats but no Piercing Attack Special rule. Obviously this would mean a points adjustment in Formations.
c. I think the damage allowed by some spells needs to be lowered.
d. The combined effect if both of these changes is made is that the battle will take longer, which may not be your overall intent. Just food for thought.

10. Could the number and effects of spells be broaden to 6, 4 spells at level1 and 2 level 2 spells, with a maximum of 4 spells for any magic user. Could there also be a restriction on the number of times a spell can be selected within the Army?

11. I propose a -1 to the dice roll for each Stand previously lost when taking a Command Test, this demonstrates a breakdown of cohesion and morale as casualties mount.

12. I propose that Characters have the Skirmish special rule, ie -1 to shoot when targeted by Missile attacks.

13. To complicate the rules further, just a suggestion, define what is Heavy, Medium, Light/Skirmisher, also define what is Infantry, Mounted, Monster, Artillery, Character (I think this has been achieved), Flyers. This could allow Spear armed Formations to get a +1 Attack Dice against Mounted, Monsters and Flying Formations only. This could allow Missile armed Formations +1 Shooting Dice when targeting Mounted of Flyers. Again, this may overcomplicate matters, just a suggestion for some thought.

14. Can you measure any distance before committing a Formation to an action? IE, can I measure the distance between my Necromancer and a Formation of Orc Spears before deciding to cast a Spell. I would argue no. Medieval/Fantasy Armies have no GPS/satellites to confirm how far away an enemy formation is.

Just a few questions to confirm your intent and get the intent set down in a clear, robust and concise set of rules. The Devils Advocate (sometines).

_________________
Lord Kulhaq

The Nightmare of your nightmares

"During your enslavement to me you will learn that there are worse things than dying."
"The world is ours, you only have to be strong enough to take what you want."

Okay i'm going to do my best to hit on every point you have brought forth here. I might have to do it in a couple different posts due to time constraints but i will stick to number order.


1. Deployment Zones. In a normal non-scenario based battle, how far apart should Armies be deployed from each other? For a 4 turn game, I found 60cm too far apart (keeping in mind one Army was Undead who are not allowed to conduct March Moves). Should it be closer to 40cm apart?

1. I'm undecided on what a standard distance should be, it hasn't come up until now but it's something that can be discussed. with most armies moving 30-45cm in their first move it could easily close a 45cm gap once both sides have moved. The issue with undead is thats their weakness, do we make the gap smaller because once army has less movement ability than others? And how much of that gap not being closed fast enough is people trying to jocky for the charge or position a flank? With more playtesting and discussion i think a standard will become obvious. With your next game, go with 45cm and see if there was as much maneuver involved? Or if it felt better your way?

2. Does Player 1 moves all of his troops/conjure spells/Shoot in his Command phase then proceed to his combat phase, or do players take it in turns to activate one formation at a time, going through the Command phase then take turns to alternate the Combat phase one Formation at a time? I went with Player 1 conducts all of his Command Phase, then conducts his Combat Phase in an order he determined; then., Player 2 had his Command Phase and subsequent Combat Phase.


2. Currently and i should add a location in the rules for this, players alternate choosing a formation, and activating it. I had thought of adding in a special feature if the current person that just moved a formation wanted to make a snap command call, this snap command would allow him to try and make another formation do an action but with a -1 leadership roll. In effect a general could try and keep the momentum on his side with an added risk.

3. Spells – Undead Spell Animate Dead. Does this spell increase a Formations wounds/Stands during the battle, or does it replace wounds/Stands previously during the battle? I took it as replacing previously lost wounds/Stands. I did not use it in the battle, I found casting Wither and Decay more beneficial, but I think the spell is still useful. Probably if the casting value was slightly lower I would have attempted it, Health 2 Skeleton Stands do not last long. I do like that there is a separate casting value to replace Wight casualties.

3. looking at the spell.

Animate Dead: Level 2
Range: 40cm
Target: Friendly Formation
Rank 1, 7+
Can be cast on any skeleton formation(Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Warriors, Skeleton Spearmen). The spell animates D6 wounds worth of skeletons to target formation.
Rank 2, 11+
Can be cast on Wights and Mammoth formations. The spell animates 1D6 wounds worth of either

3. I think i forgot to add something in, i wanted the necromancer to be able to add extra troops to a basic formation of skeletons, or replenish loses, perhaps removing archers from the choices. I didn't want the ability to raise wights and mammoths from nothing on the table as they are very powerful. Perhaps a note could be added to both to better explain that they differ in some ways.

4. Command Phase. Most of the Undead Army only needed to conduct one of the four basic moves. Does a Formation have to take a Command Test in order to make a basic move, if so why? There is no penalty for failing this, as the commander of the Formation can still get the Formation to conduct one of the basic moves anyway. Similarly, if a character uses his Command value to order a Formation to conduct a Move of some description, there is no penalty to the character of formation if the Command Test is failed, this failure only disrupts “Special Moves” requiring a Formation to change formation or March Move etc.

4. I don't see why you would need to roll if your doing a basic action. I know in my practice games we just didn't roll in certain situations, if i'm charging i don't need to roll because i always can. Here is failed activation taken from the rulebook.

Failed activation roll: A formation that fails it's activation doesn't get it's orders and thus it's commands are limited to four specific commands. The formation can either make a Move, Shoot, Charge, or Stand-fast command. This represents the individual commanders taking command of their formation and reacting to whatever threat is in their vicinity.

5.You'll notice that it says when failed they can do basic moves as this represents the individual commanders taking command of their formation and reacting to whatever threat is int heir vicinity. The failed activiation is not meant to penalize the formation and the closest characters, the character sends a command and pays attention to the bigger picture in their vicinity, this represents commands not being seen by flags, runners getting lost or killed in the heat of battle, or perhaps the commander of the formation doesn't think it's right to march his peasant force towards that dragon, etc. etc...

5.c. Units with the Berserker and/or Blood Lust special rule Must charge the closest enemy Formation if they within Charge range if they fail a Command Test.

This could be something to look into.

6. Does occupying a hill/higher ground grant an advantage in melee to the Formation higher than it’s enemy? Should it be +1 for per Stand in actual base to base combat or just +1 per formation in the melee which is actually on higher ground than its enemy?

6. At the current time i did not want to get that indepth with advanced rules, i wanted to get a solid foundation for the rules and that stuff could be looked at, at a later date. Also i feel at such a small scale the little things like this might overburden the game and turn it into a grind to get a turn done rather then a smooth battle that flows easily.

7. Charges. I think this needs to be defined. I assumed that once a Formation touched an enemy formation, because they had been ordered to charge them, that the charging unit would then wheel and line up to conform to the facing of the enemy unit, ie each stand lines up in base to base contact so that there are no overlapping bits. Both Formations have their Stands in the front rank lined up exactly together. Does the smaller Formation have to line up with the Larger Formation, regardless of who Charged? Do Skirmishers/Scouts/Light Formations have to line up with Medium/Heavy Formations regardless of who Charged? This represents the Larger/Heavier Formations using their impetus to force the smaller/lighter Formation to react to their charge.

7. What i was trying to acomplish in the rules with needing to charge to get into hand to hand combat is, when soldiers are on the march, they stow their weapons and focus on moving faster to get into position. So marching into a charge seems to go against what is standard, this is the idea behind adding cm to their base movement to show the extra dash they actually do when they charge. Marching up into an enemy formation is bad and usually ends badly as well.

7. Yes once touching they would come together, and then up 40mm facing to 40mm facing. Once a melee is engaged the two formations push together to get at eachother. smaller formation and skirmishers would form up as well. Skirmishers aren't spread out from eachother, their bases still touch and move together in a square. They are represented as troops dispearsed on their base as skirmisher and not ranked up in lines. Bigger formations still get their full attacks from their stands that are at an angle to an enemy formation, they don't have to be directly infront of them. This represents bigger formations trying to wrap around the sides of smaller formations.

8. Flank Charges. I think this needs to be defined. Is a Flank Charged based upon where the charging Formation actually moves into the target Formation, or does it depend on where the charging Formation was in relation to the target Formation before the charge was commenced? Does a charging Formation wanting to conduct a Flank charge have to be behind a line extending from the front of the Stands in the first rank of the target formation?


8. when charging an enemy, if greater then 50% of your formation is on the flank side of the formation measuring from an imaginary line that goes out from the corner of the formation at 90 degrees then you get a flank charge. If you can't decided if its greater then 50% then it is a standard charge. As charging is in a straight line only then it should be obvious before you charge if your going to end up on a flank attack or not.

8. I'm sorry i'm not seeing a diagram.

9. There seems to be no morale/shock system for casualties sustained due to Shooting or Magic. I propose the following to take mass casualties sustained as a result of Shooting or Magic:
a. If a Stand is removed due to taking enough casualties as a result of a Shooting attack or the result of a Magical Attack, a Formation must take a Command Test. If they pass they are Demoralised, if they fail they will withdraw 1d6cm per 5cm of their movement value.
b. This would also mean that the number of shooting attacks allowed per stand of missile armed Formations needs to be addressed. I think that the number of Shooting Attacks is too high. Most Missile armed Formations should be restricted to 2 Shooting attacks per stand in the front rank only, with a +1 Attack die per Stand in the second Rank only. Wood Elves would get 3 Shooting Attacks for the First Rank, +1 for the second rank and retain their Ranged Piercing Attack special rule. High Elves would have the same stats but no Piercing Attack Special rule. Obviously this would mean a points adjustment in Formations.
c. I think the damage allowed by some spells needs to be lowered.
d. The combined effect if both of these changes is made is that the battle will take longer, which may not be your overall intent. Just food for thought.


There is a system in place for melee to remove demorlization markers, so for A. how would you recommend demoralization markers be removed from shooting?
B. This is where the rules get broken as they are intended, i had actually thought along the same lines you where discussing right here. But then do you force formations to stay in a certain setup. For instance 3 across the front and 2 ranks deep? This would give the formation 7 dice to roll shots with, but whats to say the commander doesn't want to just have 1 rank 6 wide and get a total of 12 dice to roll shots with? The point value issue would not be to big of an issue i don't think as points could changed and balanced.
C. Which spells would you see lowered, give me some alternatives. (And do you think the spells would have done as much damage if you had added in another caster for orcs?) I'm not sure if sweeping changes to spells right now is in order when the undead had a major advantage. Perhaps their needs to be a dispel scroll item for just characters in general to aid armies that don't want to take as much magic casters with them? Do you think two warlords and one shaman would have assisted in causing more carnage? And crushing more of the undead formations faster?
D. i'm open to options battles taking longer isn't huge deal to me as long as everyone is having fun.

10. Could the number and effects of spells be broaden to 6, 4 spells at level1 and 2 level 2 spells, with a maximum of 4 spells for any magic user. Could there also be a restriction on the number of times a spell can be selected within the Army?

10. Absolutely, all of this is possible. The way magic spells and pricing is set up at the moment is just the quick and easy to get magic into the core game. I am under no illusions that their needs to be more. What i have been rolling around in my head is possibly having schools of magic, perhaps 9 or more schools. That way lets see Undead are allowed to choose from necromancy, shadow, and death schools of magic. You purchase 2 necromancers, and designate 1 as shadow, and 1 as necromancy. You can then purchase spells for those casters from their school of magic. Casting dice are still communial but each caster can only cast it's own spells. In effect you could have two different armies possibly using the same spells against eachother, this allows a lot more customization of your army to make it more your own style.

11. I propose a -1 to the dice roll for each Stand previously lost when taking a Command Test, this demonstrates a breakdown of cohesion and morale as casualties mount.

11. This could be a possibility, but isn't this what demoralization markers are for? In war you lose people it just happens. Say my orcs charge your goblins. My orcs destroy 3 stands of goblins and you counter taking out 1 orc stand from me. My orcs are riding the high life on adrenaline demolishing your goblins. Are they breaking down and ready to run? Perhaps when recieving a demoralization marker for losing combat but not running, you then add additional -1 leaderships ontop of the demorlization marker for each stand destroyed durring that combat and they wipe off when you drop your demorlization marker. I will have to playtest this some.

12. I propose that Characters have the Skirmish special rule, ie -1 to shoot when targeted by Missile attacks.

12. I agree with this.

13. To complicate the rules further, just a suggestion, define what is Heavy, Medium, Light/Skirmisher, also define what is Infantry, Mounted, Monster, Artillery, Character (I think this has been achieved), Flyers. This could allow Spear armed Formations to get a +1 Attack Dice against Mounted, Monsters and Flying Formations only. This could allow Missile armed Formations +1 Shooting Dice when targeting Mounted of Flyers. Again, this may overcomplicate matters, just a suggestion for some thought.

13. Could be looked at for an advanced rules section later with some of the other advanced style rules you had recommended before.

14. Can you measure any distance before committing a Formation to an action? IE, can I measure the distance between my Necromancer and a Formation of Orc Spears before deciding to cast a Spell. I would argue no. Medieval/Fantasy Armies have no GPS/satellites to confirm how far away an enemy formation is.

14. I don't agree with pre-measuring. So say you declare a charge on an enemy formation. You measure and you come up at 21cm and your range for charging is 20cm. I say you lose the extra 5cm range as your troops realise they won't make it to the enemy and the formation moves forward 15cm. How does that sound for charging? With shooting if they aren't in range the formation moves into position and isn't in range so loses their shot. I'm reminded of all those movies with a line of soldiers watching arrows drop harmlessly on the ground ten feet infornt of them. With the caster, would you have the caster lose the dice it wanted to expend on the spell it was trying to cast? It brings a lot of risk vs reward with people trying to clip formations. Of course i would be trying to eye stuff while moving other formations on the table to help my decisions on what i wanted to try and cast and shoot at hahahha.

Just a few questions to confirm your intent and get the intent set down in a clear, robust and concise set of rules. The Devils Advocate (sometines).

Keepem coming.

Blind-

Okay i'm going to do my best to hit on every point you have brought forth here. I might have to do it in a couple different posts due to time constraints but i will stick to number order.

Please see my counter offer/arguments in Italic below.


1. Deployment Zones. In a normal non-scenario based battle, how far apart should Armies be deployed from each other? For a 4 turn game, I found 60cm too far apart (keeping in mind one Army was Undead who are not allowed to conduct March Moves). Should it be closer to 40cm apart?

1. I'm undecided on what a standard distance should be, it hasn't come up until now but it's something that can be discussed. with most armies moving 30-45cm in their first move it could easily close a 45cm gap once both sides have moved. The issue with undead is thats their weakness, do we make the gap smaller because once army has less movement ability than others? And how much of that gap not being closed fast enough is people trying to jocky for the charge or position a flank? With more playtesting and discussion i think a standard will become obvious. With your next game, go with 45cm and see if there was as much maneuver involved? Or if it felt better your way?

Damn! I think in the first battle the Armies were actually deployed 90cm apart from each other, not 60cm. It seemed a little slow for a 4 turn battle because the Undead move at the same speed as the living equivalent, except they cannot March Move (perhaps the Undead should move at the Living equivalent but at +5cm to represent their constant movement, they do not tire. This lowers the penalty for not being able to March Move a little); and the Orcs failed a number of Command Tests in order to conduct a March Move. In the battle I have started (but due to re-start, please see below) being deployed 90cm apart seems pretty good; it allows units to manouvre for flanking charges and allows units with a higher Command Value to actually use this to move quicker and capture important terrain (for example a hill that dominates the centre of the battlefield).

2. Does Player 1 moves all of his troops/conjure spells/Shoot in his Command phase then proceed to his combat phase, or do players take it in turns to activate one formation at a time, going through the Command phase then take turns to alternate the Combat phase one Formation at a time? I went with Player 1 conducts all of his Command Phase, then conducts his Combat Phase in an order he determined; then., Player 2 had his Command Phase and subsequent Combat Phase.


2. Currently and i should add a location in the rules for this, players alternate choosing a formation, and activating it. I had thought of adding in a special feature if the current person that just moved a formation wanted to make a snap command call, this snap command would allow him to try and make another formation do an action but with a -1 leadership roll. In effect a general could try and keep the momentum on his side with an added risk.

I thought I had read this somewhere in the rules but carried away with my old WHFB days where a whole army moved, shot, casted spells then conducted combat. I am halfway through a battle between my Dread Elves (I finally found the little devils) and the Orc Army which had been previously defeated by the Undead. I will re-start the battle with an alternate movement of Formations for now. Allowing a General only to attempt to activate another Formation at -1 Command is a great way of using Command Value to great effect, I think it should be -1 for each subsequent Formation the General tries to activate; ie a Wood Elf General activates a unit, he then attempts to activate a second unit before his opponent can, but at -1 to his Command Value. The unit in question passes this test and conducts its movement, the Wood Elf General pushes his luck in trying to maintain the initiative and attempts to command a third unit to activate at -2 to it’s Command Test. This would simulate those Armies with a higher Command Value getting something for it (using their disciplined initiative to control the Battle) and actually use the Command Value as a Command Value, please see my comments below reference Command Value.

3. Spells – Undead Spell Animate Dead. Does this spell increase a Formations wounds/Stands during the battle, or does it replace wounds/Stands previously during the battle? I took it as replacing previously lost wounds/Stands. I did not use it in the battle, I found casting Wither and Decay more beneficial, but I think the spell is still useful. Probably if the casting value was slightly lower I would have attempted it, Health 2 Skeleton Stands do not last long. I do like that there is a separate casting value to replace Wight casualties.

3. looking at the spell.

Animate Dead: Level 2
Range: 40cm
Target: Friendly Formation
Rank 1, 7+
Can be cast on any skeleton formation(Skeleton Archers, Skeleton Warriors, Skeleton Spearmen). The spell animates D6 wounds worth of skeletons to target formation.
Rank 2, 11+
Can be cast on Wights and Mammoth formations. The spell animates 1D6 wounds worth of either

3. I think i forgot to add something in, i wanted the necromancer to be able to add extra troops to a basic formation of skeletons, or replenish loses, perhaps removing archers from the choices. I didn't want the ability to raise wights and mammoths from nothing on the table as they are very powerful. Perhaps a note could be added to both to better explain that they differ in some ways.

If this Spell allows Undead formations to be increased in size beyond their starting size, be careful. I took 2 Necromancers assuming they could replenish lost wounds only, if this spell allows units to be increased beyond their starting size I would sit back in my deployment zone with 3 Necromancers, have 3-4 units of 6 stand Skeleton archers with a couple of Wight Cavalry and wait for the enemy to advance under a hail of arrows (I will be adding d6 wounds to each Skeleton Archer unit each turn x 3 Necromancers per turn, less any of the spells being dispelled). Have you actually tested this? I understand the increased magical power to raise/”heal” Wights/Mammoths, I think the increase in magic power required is good. I don’t agree with raising a unit above its starting number of stand, but I do agree with ‘’healing’’ a unit back up to its staring number of stands. I will have to have a play with this first, this is just my gut feel.

4. Command Phase. Most of the Undead Army only needed to conduct one of the four basic moves. Does a Formation have to take a Command Test in order to make a basic move, if so why? There is no penalty for failing this, as the commander of the Formation can still get the Formation to conduct one of the basic moves anyway. Similarly, if a character uses his Command value to order a Formation to conduct a Move of some description, there is no penalty to the character of formation if the Command Test is failed, this failure only disrupts “Special Moves” requiring a Formation to change formation or March Move etc.

4. I don't see why you would need to roll if your doing a basic action. I know in my practice games we just didn't roll in certain situations, if i'm charging i don't need to roll because i always can. Here is failed activation taken from the rulebook.

Failed activation roll: A formation that fails it's activation doesn't get it's orders and thus it's commands are limited to four specific commands. The formation can either make a Move, Shoot, Charge, or Stand-fast command. This represents the individual commanders taking command of their formation and reacting to whatever threat is in their vicinity.

No worries…but…real soldiers like doing nothing. If they can stand at range and do nothing because they haven’t understood what they have been ordered to do, or they didn’t see the flags telling them to advance or charge then they will remain happy and do nothing I can remember many times when I got my a**** kicked because I hadn’t been told to do something that my platoon Sergeant or Platoon Commander had expected me to do but hadn’t actually told me to do it, they had assumed I would because they knew the Commanders higher intent/battleplan, but as a private soldier I did not. It takes a Commander to Lead or Order his soldiers to charge an enemy. It takes real guts to actually face another person in a real fight within arms reach of each other, most soldiers need a Commander to order them/Force them to do this. A Command Test does simulate many things as you have alluded to, flags not seen, messengers getting lost or not making it to the unit, orders misunderstood; but there is no penalty for failing the Command Test at all, apart from not making a March Move! This may be an area where we agree only that we disagree. Perhaps a Failed Command Test means that the Formation may shoot at -1 to hit or Move at half their Move Distance (rounding down) forwards only.

5.You'll notice that it says when failed they can do basic moves as this represents the individual commanders taking command of their formation and reacting to whatever threat is int heir vicinity. The failed activiation is not meant to penalize the formation and the closest characters, the character sends a command and pays attention to the bigger picture in their vicinity, this represents commands not being seen by flags, runners getting lost or killed in the heat of battle, or perhaps the commander of the formation doesn't think it's right to march his peasant force towards that dragon, etc. etc...

5.c. Units with the Berserker and/or Blood Lust special rule Must charge the closest enemy Formation if they within Charge range if they fail a Command Test.

This could be something to look into.

6. Does occupying a hill/higher ground grant an advantage in melee to the Formation higher than it’s enemy? Should it be +1 for per Stand in actual base to base combat or just +1 per formation in the melee which is actually on higher ground than its enemy?

6. At the current time i did not want to get that indepth with advanced rules, i wanted to get a solid foundation for the rules and that stuff could be looked at, at a later date. Also i feel at such a small scale the little things like this might overburden the game and turn it into a grind to get a turn done rather then a smooth battle that flows easily.

No problems, but if you are happy to have a battle extended from an average of 4 turns to say 6 turns, then Scouts Deployed in forward locations, or Infantry deployed to hold a key area of terrain should get a small bonus against Mounted troops or Flyers attacking them in Wooded or House type of terrain.

7. Charges. I think this needs to be defined. I assumed that once a Formation touched an enemy formation, because they had been ordered to charge them, that the charging unit would then wheel and line up to conform to the facing of the enemy unit, ie each stand lines up in base to base contact so that there are no overlapping bits. Both Formations have their Stands in the front rank lined up exactly together. Does the smaller Formation have to line up with the Larger Formation, regardless of who Charged? Do Skirmishers/Scouts/Light Formations have to line up with Medium/Heavy Formations regardless of who Charged? This represents the Larger/Heavier Formations using their impetus to force the smaller/lighter Formation to react to their charge.

7. What i was trying to acomplish in the rules with needing to charge to get into hand to hand combat is, when soldiers are on the march, they stow their weapons and focus on moving faster to get into position. So marching into a charge seems to go against what is standard, this is the idea behind adding cm to their base movement to show the extra dash they actually do when they charge. Marching up into an enemy formation is bad and usually ends badly as well. I may not have explained this well here, this is not about Marching (Marching troops cannot Charge an Enemy Formation). This is about the position of a Formation before it declares a Flank or Rear Charge.

7. Yes once touching they would come together, and then up 40mm facing to 40mm facing. Once a melee is engaged the two formations push together to get at eachother. smaller formation and skirmishers would form up as well. Skirmishers aren't spread out from eachother, their bases still touch and move together in a square. They are represented as troops dispearsed on their base as skirmisher and not ranked up in lines. Bigger formations still get their full attacks from their stands that are at an angle to an enemy formation, they don't have to be directly infront of them. This represents bigger formations trying to wrap around the sides of smaller formations.

8. Flank Charges. I think this needs to be defined. Is a Flank Charged based upon where the charging Formation actually moves into the target Formation, or does it depend on where the charging Formation was in relation to the target Formation before the charge was commenced? Does a charging Formation wanting to conduct a Flank charge have to be behind a line extending from the front of the Stands in the first rank of the target formation?


8. when charging an enemy, if greater then 50% of your formation is on the flank side of the formation measuring from an imaginary line that goes out from the corner of the formation at 90 degrees then you get a flank charge. If you can't decided if its greater then 50% then it is a standard charge. As charging is in a straight line only then it should be obvious before you charge if your going to end up on a flank attack or not.

8. I'm sorry i'm not seeing a diagram.

Damn. I will need to post this separately in a powerpoint diagram to display what it is I am attempting to say. I think I understand how you have explained a Flank Charge. A Formation attempting to Flank Charge an Enemy Formation must have at least 50% of its Stands behind the Front of the Enemy Formation when it declares its charge in order for it to count as a Flank Charge.

9. There seems to be no morale/shock system for casualties sustained due to Shooting or Magic. I propose the following to take mass casualties sustained as a result of Shooting or Magic:
a. If a Stand is removed due to taking enough casualties as a result of a Shooting attack or the result of a Magical Attack, a Formation must take a Command Test. If they pass they are Demoralised, if they fail they will withdraw 1d6cm per 5cm of their movement value.
b. This would also mean that the number of shooting attacks allowed per stand of missile armed Formations needs to be addressed. I think that the number of Shooting Attacks is too high. Most Missile armed Formations should be restricted to 2 Shooting attacks per stand in the front rank only, with a +1 Attack die per Stand in the second Rank only. Wood Elves would get 3 Shooting Attacks for the First Rank, +1 for the second rank and retain their Ranged Piercing Attack special rule. High Elves would have the same stats but no Piercing Attack Special rule. Obviously this would mean a points adjustment in Formations.
c. I think the damage allowed by some spells needs to be lowered.
d. The combined effect if both of these changes is made is that the battle will take longer, which may not be your overall intent. Just food for thought.


There is a system in place for melee to remove demorlization markers, so for A. how would you recommend demoralization markers be removed from shooting?
B. This is where the rules get broken as they are intended, i had actually thought along the same lines you where discussing right here. But then do you force formations to stay in a certain setup. For instance 3 across the front and 2 ranks deep? This would give the formation 7 dice to roll shots with, but whats to say the commander doesn't want to just have 1 rank 6 wide and get a total of 12 dice to roll shots with? The point value issue would not be to big of an issue i don't think as points could changed and balanced.
C. Which spells would you see lowered, give me some alternatives. (And do you think the spells would have done as much damage if you had added in another caster for orcs?) I'm not sure if sweeping changes to spells right now is in order when the undead had a major advantage. Perhaps their needs to be a dispel scroll item for just characters in general to aid armies that don't want to take as much magic casters with them? Do you think two warlords and one shaman would have assisted in causing more carnage? And crushing more of the undead formations faster?
D. i'm open to options battles taking longer isn't huge deal to me as long as everyone is having fun.

A. In the proceeding turn a Rally Test (basically a Command Test) could be used to either Order a Formation to Move etc or Remove a Demoralisation Marker.
B. Formations are free to deploy in any Formation they wish to, they are actually allowed to make changes to their Formations during a Move; so Missile Armed troops could deploy in a single rank ( especially if they have Exotic Ranged Weapons|) or in a 3 stand frontage with a second rank of 3 stands (Orc and Skeleton archers) or a front rank of 2 stands with an overall depth of 3 Stands (again Orc and Undead Archers). For example, an Undead Archer Formation of 6 Stands deploys with 1 Stand only in the front rank, 5 Stands directly behind it in a column. The 6th Stand is actually 10cm away from the Front Stand. Can it see the same enemy Formation as the Front Stand?, Given that it is an extra 10 cm (ie one third of the range of Undead Archers) away from the Target unit (ie potentially 40 cm away from its target and therefore technically out of range) should it count as contributing a full 3 shooting attacks at 5+ to hit?
C. Spells, this will require some considered thought, I found Decay to be particularly effective against the Health 4 Orcs, how effective would it be against the majority of units with a Health of 3?
D. If your stated aim was to conclude an average battle in 4 turns, I think you are close, but at the sake, in my opinion, of a robust command and control element. If you intend to achieve a reasonable but conclusive result in say 6 turns, then some further discussion is required. I think you have made the rules too “Killy”,Especially Shooting in one turm.


More to come.

Best Regards,

_________________
Lord Kulhaq

The Nightmare of your nightmares

"During your enslavement to me you will learn that there are worse things than dying."
"The world is ours, you only have to be strong enough to take what you want."

Quick response as I am on my lunch at work at the moment. Let's focus on getting some balance, we will work on 4 armies, undead, beastmen, dread elves, and orcs and goblins. We can playtesting these and get them more well rounded finalize point values and that kind of stuff.

In terms of shooting a standard can be. Core will be better as they will have more shots but veteran units have more special abilities, armor and attacks.
Core 2/4+ 30cm
Veteran 3/4+ 30cm
Elite 3/3+ 30cm

I'll have more Indepth comments after I get off work.

Agreed, we work on the four very different armies you suggested in order to nut out the main rules (very good cross section I must say).

Amended Shooting stats, That is what I had in my head as a solution to my problem with high shooting casualties.

Regards

_________________
Lord Kulhaq

The Nightmare of your nightmares

"During your enslavement to me you will learn that there are worse things than dying."
"The world is ours, you only have to be strong enough to take what you want."

Okay here's some thoughts, i'm also going to be sending you emails so i hope you check your email.

1. Damn! I think in the first battle the Armies were actually deployed 90cm apart from each other, not 60cm. It seemed a little slow for a 4 turn battle because the Undead move at the same speed as the living equivalent, except they cannot March Move (perhaps the Undead should move at the Living equivalent but at +5cm to represent their constant movement, they do not tire. This lowers the penalty for not being able to March Move a little); and the Orcs failed a number of Command Tests in order to conduct a March Move. In the battle I have started (but due to re-start, please see below) being deployed 90cm apart seems pretty good; it allows units to manouvre for flanking charges and allows units with a higher Command Value to actually use this to move quicker and capture important terrain (for example a hill that dominates the centre of the battlefield).

1. So lets call the gap between the armies 60cm for a pitch battle, with an additional 20cm deep on both sides for setting up your armies, that will lead to a table width of 100cm. We can get some pitch battles in to see how this works.

2. I thought I had read this somewhere in the rules but carried away with my old WHFB days where a whole army moved, shot, casted spells then conducted combat. I am halfway through a battle between my Dread Elves (I finally found the little devils) and the Orc Army which had been previously defeated by the Undead. I will re-start the battle with an alternate movement of Formations for now. Allowing a General only to attempt to activate another Formation at -1 Command is a great way of using Command Value to great effect, I think it should be -1 for each subsequent Formation the General tries to activate; ie a Wood Elf General activates a unit, he then attempts to activate a second unit before his opponent can, but at -1 to his Command Value. The unit in question passes this test and conducts its movement, the Wood Elf General pushes his luck in trying to maintain the initiative and attempts to command a third unit to activate at -2 to it’s Command Test. This would simulate those Armies with a higher Command Value getting something for it (using their disciplined initiative to control the Battle) and actually use the Command Value as a Command Value, please see my comments below reference Command Value.

2. Originally i was going to do exactly this. Then i thought would it penalize lower leadership armies to much if one side got to move a bunch before they got their turn? I guess that is part of the flavor of different armies though. The second thing i wanted to do was to limit it to one additional attempt at another command with a -1, that way a leader wanting to give it another go had the chance to if they so desired.

3.If this Spell allows Undead formations to be increased in size beyond their starting size, be careful. I took 2 Necromancers assuming they could replenish lost wounds only, if this spell allows units to be increased beyond their starting size I would sit back in my deployment zone with 3 Necromancers, have 3-4 units of 6 stand Skeleton archers with a couple of Wight Cavalry and wait for the enemy to advance under a hail of arrows (I will be adding d6 wounds to each Skeleton Archer unit each turn x 3 Necromancers per turn, less any of the spells being dispelled). Have you actually tested this? I understand the increased magical power to raise/”heal” Wights/Mammoths, I think the increase in magic power required is good. I don’t agree with raising a unit above its starting number of stand, but I do agree with ‘’healing’’ a unit back up to its staring number of stands. I will have to have a play with this first, this is just my gut feel.

3. This is what i meant by removing archers from the list. I thought that it would be to powerful to be able to raise more archers into an archer formation. What i initially visualized is a necromancer healing skeletons to a formation in a combat making them almost unbreakable. Which i think is something i would not have an issue with as they are using resources to keep a skeleton formation up and running. So perhaps remove the add to formation and allow to still heal. But how often would this spell actually get used.

3A. What are your thoughts on creating schools of magic with 6-8 spells in each school for more added flavor?

4. No worries…but…real soldiers like doing nothing. If they can stand at range and do nothing because they haven’t understood what they have been ordered to do, or they didn’t see the flags telling them to advance or charge then they will remain happy and do nothing I can remember many times when I got my a**** kicked because I hadn’t been told to do something that my platoon Sergeant or Platoon Commander had expected me to do but hadn’t actually told me to do it, they had assumed I would because they knew the Commanders higher intent/battleplan, but as a private soldier I did not. It takes a Commander to Lead or Order his soldiers to charge an enemy. It takes real guts to actually face another person in a real fight within arms reach of each other, most soldiers need a Commander to order them/Force them to do this. A Command Test does simulate many things as you have alluded to, flags not seen, messengers getting lost or not making it to the unit, orders misunderstood; but there is no penalty for failing the Command Test at all, apart from not making a March Move! This may be an area where we agree only that we disagree. Perhaps a Failed Command Test means that the Formation may shoot at -1 to hit or Move at half their Move Distance (rounding down) forwards only.

4. I see your point, how about this... it might add an additional layer to the game that might bog it down some but it could add more realism. So lets say a formation fails an activation with a leader within range, they then get to make an activiation roll on their base leadership value for their formation commander, and if this fails they then hunker down and do nothing? Also if they pass the second leadership roll they then can only do, move, shoot, stand fast, or charge? What do you think about that?

6. No problems, but if you are happy to have a battle extended from an average of 4 turns to say 6 turns, then Scouts Deployed in forward locations, or Infantry deployed to hold a key area of terrain should get a small bonus against Mounted troops or Flyers attacking them in Wooded or House type of terrain.

6. Again i agree something can be looked at in the furture for advanced rules, but for now lets get the basic game solid and then see what other stuff we can add in.

8. Damn. I will need to post this separately in a powerpoint diagram to display what it is I am attempting to say. I think I understand how you have explained a Flank Charge. A Formation attempting to Flank Charge an Enemy Formation must have at least 50% of its Stands behind the Front of the Enemy Formation when it declares its charge in order for it to count as a Flank Charge.

8. I would say over 50%, and that it be obvious if their is any doubt it counts as a frontal charge. That way it avoids arguments and keeps game play moving. er on the side of caution i say.

9. A. In the proceeding turn a Rally Test (basically a Command Test) could be used to either Order a Formation to Move etc or Remove a Demoralisation Marker.
B. Formations are free to deploy in any Formation they wish to, they are actually allowed to make changes to their Formations during a Move; so Missile Armed troops could deploy in a single rank ( especially if they have Exotic Ranged Weapons|) or in a 3 stand frontage with a second rank of 3 stands (Orc and Skeleton archers) or a front rank of 2 stands with an overall depth of 3 Stands (again Orc and Undead Archers). For example, an Undead Archer Formation of 6 Stands deploys with 1 Stand only in the front rank, 5 Stands directly behind it in a column. The 6th Stand is actually 10cm away from the Front Stand. Can it see the same enemy Formation as the Front Stand?, Given that it is an extra 10 cm (ie one third of the range of Undead Archers) away from the Target unit (ie potentially 40 cm away from its target and therefore technically out of range) should it count as contributing a full 3 shooting attacks at 5+ to hit?
C. Spells, this will require some considered thought, I found Decay to be particularly effective against the Health 4 Orcs, how effective would it be against the majority of units with a Health of 3?
D. If your stated aim was to conclude an average battle in 4 turns, I think you are close, but at the sake, in my opinion, of a robust command and control element. If you intend to achieve a reasonable but conclusive result in say 6 turns, then some further discussion is required. I think you have made the rules too “Killy”,Especially Shooting in one turm.

9. A. So if it's your formations turn they can do a basic command, they roll a leadership test to remove demoralization markers and if passed they can do a move, shoot, charge, or standfast. If they fail the leadership test they sit tight and lose their turn? I think this would cause some people to really gamble with demoralization markers and could have some interesting outcomes.
B. So B was covered here. Obviously additions and subtraction can be made based off how we build the different armies as well as special abilities added to formations.
Core 2/4+ 30cm
Veteran 3/4+ 30cm
Elite 3/3+ 30cm
I think to keep it simple, if a piece of the formation can hit they can all take a shot. If we deviate from that it will cause some serious issues for people playing and bog down games.
C. Looking at Decay, it can be nerfed some but i think it's not a to bad spell. This is a spell you would want to counter or atleast try too. And for it to be super effective you would need to throw more dice down. Also if need be it could be target formation suffers 2 wounds +1 for every 2 over successful casting cost, max 4, or could lower the max extra. I mean the spell still allows armor saves. I guess i designed spells for casters to really dedicate extra dice if they wanted it to pop. Each race has a decent damage spell lets look at the differences between them.

Undead
Decay: Level 1, Cast 5+
Range: 30cm
Target: Enemy Formation
Target formation suffers D3 wounds +1 for every 2 over successful casting cost up to a maximum of 4 extra wounds. Armor save's are allowed as normal.

Orc's and Goblins
Face punch: Level 1, Cast 3+
Range: 40cm
Target: Enemy Formation
A green fist streaks across the field of battle from the shamans hand getting bigger the closer it gets to the enemy formation. The fist smashes into the formation doing d3 damage. Can be cast multiple times.

Beastmen
Obsidian Bull: Level 1, Cast 4+
Range: 30cm
Target: Enemy Formation
A giant obsidian bull streaks across the field of battle from the shamans hand towards the enemy formation. The Bull smashes into the formation doing d3 damage with crushing.

Lizardmen
Snake Swarm: Level 1, Cast 5+
Range: 30cm
Target: Enemy Formation
The Lizardmen shaman summons a swarm of snakes to attack an enemy formation. Target formation takes d3 wounds +1 for every 2 over successful casting cost up to a maximum of 2 extra wounds. With a -1 armor save.

Dwarves don't have spells but i was thinking of giving them an ancestral arc lightning that rune smiths can call down to smite their enemies.

Wood elves don't have an offensive spell ability But with Brambles they can spread this around and force their enemy to either let it go or waste dispel dice on removing these from enemy formations. I should probably add to brambles that any deaths from Brambles either or not to a successful combat victory. That might be a little overpowered though.
Brambles: Level 1, Cast 5+
Range: 30cm
Target: Friendly Formation
A friendly that has this spell cast on them is protected by thorny brambles. An enemy formation that attack's this formation must roll a D6 for each successful melee HIT, on a roll of a 6 they suffer 1 wound with normal armor saves allowed. Lasts until dispelled.

9.C. Spell casters are supposed to be able to add some might to battles, most run well over 100 points and can only cast a couple spells. Skeleton archers 6 stands will cost 204 points and get 12 shots at 50% to hit, thats 6 wounds before armor saves on average. This is with the reduction in the ammount of ranged shots also. Your necromancer cost 125 points, and the most he will be able to squeeze out of casting decay if he rolls high enough is 7 wounds total. And i'd be willing to bet most players won't frontload all their dice into 1 spell when they have other options. I think with shooting taking a nerf and casters being mighty characters that they are justified in being able to do some serious damage. Most can only cast their damage spell once per turn as well.

9.D. We will find a balance, already coming up with some good ideas for shooting.

Blind-