I played a 3k Squat vs Squat game last night. We actually ended up with pretty varied lists. I took

1 x infantry & rhinos
2 x bezerkers (1 tunnellers, 1 rhinos)
Pithead

Robots
Iron Hawks
2 x bikes
2 x Overlords

Goliaths
Cyclops

My opponent had a more infantry heavy army with a couple of big blocks including thunderers, 2 x mole mortars + thud guns, an overlord & a colossus and a land train

Main reflections are, the pithead is really useful. In my previous game against Carlos (see above) just didn't have enough mobility. Here I was able to use scouting robots and bikes emerging from the pithead to really support a 3rd turn tunneller push on the blitz. The Cyclops is obviously pretty good against other squats, especially when dealing with overlords. Rhinos also seriously help, my opponent was able to to make some really clever moves with his bezerkers that made the game very interesting.

Lastly, regarding Overlords. I think they're fine as they are. Mine were very useful but my opponent did manage to break one of mine with a bit of shooting, and my cyclops took his out turn 1. So yes, they hit hard but they are seriously vulnerable and as such seem about right for the price.

One last thought we had was, as Carlos mentioned, the Goliaths are very vulnerable. Do they actually represent value for money when you can take a land train + rad bomb car for only 25 points more? This gives 2 template macro barrage, plus more mobility and better armour, close assault & firefight.

Suggested tweeks would be:
- Not being able to have whole units of trikes are kind of tricky, it makes it hard to dedicate
- The bike guildmaster having 2x5+ attacks with first strike, we both wondered why he didn't hit a bit harder?
- Regular infantry seem a little overpriced, they cost about the same as a unit of aspect warriors and seem overcosted in comparison to guardsmen. One thought would be restore the 5+ armour save, as it fits with squats being survivable.
- Thunderers are good but not being able to take them as a seperate unit means I'm really unlikely to use them in a 3k or below game

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Thanks for your thoughts Steve

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Which stats for the Goliaths have you used?

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The 1.4 stats.

Goliath Mega
Cannon WE 5cm 5+ 6+ 6+ Mega-Cannon 125cm 3BP Ignore Cover, Indirect Fire DC2. Critical Hi

Is there something more recent?

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How is the 1.5 List being received? Will this list see approval soon Mosc?

I still have issues with the Thunderfire and Thunderers, but generally the list is there.

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We'll Tim since you seem to have invested a lot of testing into the list what do you think needs to be changed about thunderer sand thunder fires?

Never a simple job to finish off a list.

Here are my problems/issues and the small fixes that I would make to the list

Firstly the list has poor AA. It is possible to have lots of AA on the table (Thunderfires) 100pt support formations, but unless taken in large numbers they are generally easily suppressed/broken/destroyed. The list has one other AA formation, the Overlord, but that is more a token than anything else. The list also has no aircraft to CAP or intercept other aircraft.

In comparison to other lists the only other army that is similar is Tyranids, but they have their own balancing with the Dominatrix and Zoanthropes.

My suggestion would be to have the Thunderfires follow the Baran and Krieg Heavy AA gun format. A formation of 3 with either entrenchments or transport (Rhinos?) for 150pts.
Stats would be AV, 0cm, 5+, 6+, 6+ Multiple Barrelled Battle Cannon – 75cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+
I’m prepared to take the reduced shooting from the current list to have the increased range for the cannon. I would even be happy to have a ‘may not move & shoot’ in the same activation special rule. But the extra range is needed to cope with Marines. The extra number is required for survivability of the formation. Entrenchments/transports allows the units to either move or set up in a location which is not necessarily an existing piece of cover.

Secondly, Thunderers. I can live with no changes here, but just would not use them in a tournament list. The problem that I have is that they are a +150pts upgrade to a 300pt formation. If I am going to take my Cyclops, Colossus, Overlords, Thunderfires & Gyrocopters along with my standard infantry, I just don’t have the points/activations to afford to add a +150pt upgrade to a formation.

To get around this I would be interested in looking at a 4 strong Thunderer formation with transport for 200pts. Possible upgrade with Rapiers.

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I'd echo all of this, I've played maybe half a dozen games with this list (with one tonight against the Eldar Titan legion list) and agree with all these issues. Regarding Thunderers, they seem like the least viable of 4 improvements for warriors, I'd definitely take any or a combo of more warriors, warlord or the Leviathan ahead of them.

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My other final thought on the list is about the Cyclops. Though this is more of a thought than any serious issue with playability, it works well as is. My thought would be could the main gun move from one shot D6+1 TK to 2 shots D3+1 or D3 TK.

In terms of damage output D3+1 is slightly higher than current (average per game if firing every turn at say a titan of 14pts damage vs 13) while D3 is lower (average 10 pts). My thinking for this is two-fold, firstly it ties in more with the history of the unit which had a kind of pulsar attack way back in space marine (it used to strip void shields). Secondly, it makes it a bit more consistent as a unit, basically having just one really high power shot often means a game hinges (more so than usual) on a single dice roll which is kind of exasperating for both players. Lastly, it means the Cyclops has more of a function against non-titan lists and against eldar titans where currently it's make a holofield roll (which usually happens) or be destroyed it could be that the holofield roll is less likely but the result of failing ain't so bad.

The other final (just thought of now) option you could add to this is to have the 2 shot main weapon and convert the missiles to 1 shot AA. But that's probably opening up a whole new can of worms.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

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It is down to a question of taste and where we are up to on the testing. D6+1 or D3+1 will mean that if the main gun hits it will always break an unshielded small WE after that everything is a bonus.

I see the Cyclops as the ultimate single machine against the larger titans and not necessarily a general enemy killer. There are the Doomstrike missles for stripping shields (& most effective against Holofields) followed up by the main gun which finishes off the WE. Yes, sometimes it fails, but look at the Eldar Cobra which has the same problem.

The one thing that I am still angling for is the Cyclops' missiles losing their indirect fire. This is because I tend to end up using the missiles to shoot at a small AV formation before brining the Cyclops out to play.

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I'm not sure you'd be autobreaking small WE units. I might be getting the FF rules wrong but surely you'd have to be able to draw a line through 2 models in the unit to hit more than one (eg getting on the flank and firing down the line)? In that sense it might make for a more tactical use of the cyclops and encourage getting forward early rather than turn 1 IDF all the rockets.

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What I was thinking was: DC3 WE 1BM for being shot at, 2BM minimum from D6+1 TK hit.

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Interesting, would that only apply to dc3 or also regular vehicles and dc4+

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Sorry, I was trying to cut down the number of characters used to explain this as I was working on my phone.

No all I was trying to explain was that when a Cyclops shoots and hits with its main gun it will automatically place 3BM on to an unshielded WE (1 for shooting, 1 for each DC damage caused D6+1, so between 2 & 7 BM). So for Baneblades, Void Spinners, Decimators etc they will automatically be broken from a Hellfury Cannon hit, taking 3BM.

Armoured vehicles just take a single hit as normal and for WE with more DC then the D6 comes into play.

Special rules and invulnerable saves modify this of course.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
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