Hi

From discussion of Titan BP weapons it makes me wonder if we have a problem with Squat Landtrain BP weapons:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=22807

From NetEA Army List Compendium:
Landtrain engine Doomsday Cannon has 3BP, MW
Bomb Battle Car has 3BP, TK(1)
Mortar Battle Car has 3BP

If you take even one of either Bomb or Mortar Battlecars then you lose benefit of MW on Doomsday Cannon. You also gain no benefit from Bomb Battlecar TK shots.

Would a possible solution be to make Doomsday Cannon a direct fire weapon with no BP?

Cheers

James

Actually a new list for squats is in development since a few weeks, found here

The problem still arises though, Mortar and Bomb car both have regular attack BP and Ignore Cover, while the doomsday cannon have 3BP MW.
I understood from the above thread that you have to add all BP together, I previously thought you'd play MW BP seperatley so have played this wrong.

Basically to use all weapons you'd have to give up MW on the doomsday cannon and also the IC on the other weapons.

I think this makes mortar battle cars a lot less attractive and also the bomb car. I think we should think about dropping the MW on the doomsday cannon in favour of IC and perhaps disrupt.

This also makes you loose MW if you combine collosus missiles with it's doomsday cannon.

This ties directly into the discussion in the army list thread as to how the Squat Land Train should be purchased. If the list ends up forcing someone to take one of every car before you can take a duplicate then that means you'll lose the special rules for the Bomb and Mortar car (assuming you fire both together) regardless of the Doomsday Cannon.
I think MW is a good representation of the Doomsday Cannon so making it direct fire rather than BP could work. The spotter would still let if fire without LOS but that may seem a bit fiddly. It still won't solve mixing Bomb and Mortar cars though.

What did you have in mind for the Doomsday? A TK weapon or a multiple shot (like a 4 x MW4+)?

My first consideration is that these are each different weapon systems and -as such- I was expecting this. The Demiurg had the same mechanic built into their list and the war engines were priced as such.

Doomsday Cannons can fire without LOS with the spotter, which means it can technically fire without LOS while moving. However these macro-weapons are still subject to a fixed forward firing arc. This is a forward weapon that I see being something you want to keep pointed down field for the entire game if you can help it.
Mortars are slow firing all around weapons with a short distance. I see these as being close-in weapons for softening up approaching assault formations that stand to attack you from the rear quarters.
Rad-Bombs are one-shots that go big range but must fire indirect to take advantage of it. They disrupt. I see these being a first strike weapon or a last ditch weapon, depending upon how vulnerable my train was.

IMO this creates tactical choices rather than imposing an unfair penalty. With these War Engines on the border of underpricing already, any fix we would put in place would almost certainly bump them even higher. Also this makes the argument for allowing people to piece their Trains together as they see fit. Forcing fixed meal plan (as opposed to the 'buffet train') means players will always be jammed up by this choice. Customizable trains mean you can design your train for your play style.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Doomsday Cannon as direct fire TK would help- that way it is still worth taking Bomb and Mortar cars- otherwise pointless to take them.

Agree with your comment re tactical choices on Bomb vs Mortar. With direct fire TK on Doomsday Cannon it seems to solve the problem.

Thanks

James

I haven't taken the Mortar Cars yet since I'm working my way through different combos However I played a train with two Bomb Cars and used it effectively. I had set up the train where it was aimed between two hills. Anything comin' around the corner was gonna git it! When my Mud Marines opponent stayed to the right flank, I bombed him with the Rad-Bombs for two turns in a row. Lost the game anyway, but not because of the train.

Wargame Insomniac, if we changed the Doomsday Cannon, what would be the purpose of the Spotter as you see it? I'm not saying we're doing this, but I want to understand the full scope of your objections.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

The Doomsday Cannon is on the Leviathan (which is in IG lists as well) and Colossus in addition to the Land Train. Doing this would muck all of them up. The problem is not with all of those units and lists. It's just the Land Train, so it should be dealt with on the Land Train unit.

Obviously, the quick and easy answer is to put whatever weapon stats you want on the LT and then rename the weapon appropriately.

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It seems to me the real problem here is that people feel "cheated" if they are forced to choose between a small, special ability barrage and a large barrage. They are unfairly losing abilities or firepower. It seems to me there are only a couple choices on how to fix that.

1) Redesign the weapon loads across the entire train so that everything interacts more efficiently.

2) Price and playtest it as-is, with the either/or choice, and manage player expectations in another way, such as design notes, so they don't feel cheated.

"We know the barrage weapons on the Land Train often lose their special abilities. The loss of special abilities is built into the point cost. In addition, the nature of the barrage table is such that it allows quite a bit of optimization (aka min-maxing). The loss of special abilities when combining barrages partially offsets potential abuse."

Actually it also applies to the collosus to some degree with its missiles.



Nah it used to be a barrage weapon back in SM/TL

Ok- fair enough- was just trying to think of a way of getting round the way you add up BP weapons. With direct fire weapons it is simple- you roll each weapon to hit separately and then simply apply the relevant effect e.g. MW, TK, IC etc.

If Doomsday Cannon has to stay as BP, does it have to stay as MW? Otherwise there is no point in taking Bomb and Mortar Battlecars unless they are pointed cheap enough to reflect that inclusion of either automatically negates the MW ability of Doomsday Cannon.

Just trying to think of a solution that does nt require any funky special rules old adage of KISS.

Cheers

James