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Changes to the Inquisition Lists

 Post subject: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:51 am 
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Reference material can be found in the NetEA document here: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=16762
============================

I have a concern that a list that I think should be in development (ORDO MALLEUS) has not had a serious revision in the past year. The main concern I have is Fearless that is abundant through the Grey Knights (shock horror).

My solution:
- Drop Fearless
- Drop costs by 25 points (maybe more - need to do the math)
- Give a special rule (stalwart) which allows them to auto-rally


Other areas that I feel should be cleaned up:

- Rites of exorcism: just state MW or No Inv Save allowed.
- Shrouding: remove the 45cm rule and simply state "any Indirect Fire or Aircraft attack" has a -1 to hit, or if being really pedantic, "all shooting" is at -1 to hit.
- Fearless Drivers: remove this altogether
- Nemesis Force Weapons - just have this as part of the Rites of Exorcism

- Glavian Pilot: Remove
- Land Raider Costs to be reduced

I have to really sit down and work out any of the other niggling items (short on time ATM) so interested in people's thoughts on the above ideas so far.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:10 pm 
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I approached the netERC about taking over the inquisition lists in Lord Inquisitor's absence. They messaged him, and he came back for a short period then disappeared again.

Sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:03 pm 
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The list could do with a few tweaks and updates but I don't think so many changes are needed - if any list justifies having a potentially all fearless army (paying appropriate costs for it obviously) then it would an all Grey Knights chosen Daemon Hunter army. If their points costs are a fair bit higher than normal marines for all the bells and whistles special abilities they get then they could be balanced fine.

I've sent Lord I a PM querying what his plans are with the lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:05 pm 
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I've said about a billion times (Actually about eight) that the Grey Knights "shrouding" special rule is basically doing nothing due to its treatment as cover, and only at very long ranges.

But nobody cares. :-(

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:11 pm 
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I would wait until January 2011 when the Grey Knights get their new Codex.

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:15 pm 
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I would rather see the existing lists get a little bit of a polish/update sooner ideally. Hopefully (touch wood) the Net-EA Army Book will be up before then and it would be nice to get the list included in there in the best possible state, even if development might go off in a different direction again come January.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:45 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I've said about a billion times (Actually about eight) that the Grey Knights "shrouding" special rule is basically doing nothing due to its treatment as cover, and only at very long ranges.
But nobody cares. :-(


I do. It's in my first post :)

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:06 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
I approached the netERC about taking over the inquisition lists in Lord Inquisitor's absence. They messaged him, and he came back for a short period then disappeared again.


As the Ordo share many of the units, I think it is a good idea that the one person is in control, or has overview at least, of the project as a whole.

Zombo: Seeing you appear to be the only one that has actually started with it, why not continue with a series Z of the list to help move development along. I was going to do it however I feel that there are others better qualified (such as yourself) to get the ball rolling.

In regards to this:
Quote:
if any list justifies having a potentially all fearless army (paying appropriate costs for it obviously) then it would an all Grey Knights chosen Daemon Hunter army. If their points costs are a fair bit higher than normal marines for all the bells and whistles special abilities they get then they could be balanced fine.


It is less about balancing and more about playability. Fearless in Epic is not what Fearless is in 40K. Simple as that. Higher points costs to justify the ability just mean less formations, which effects in part the enjoyment of the game. I have discussed it before, but add in the removal of the ability to kill stuff when it is broken (queue Terminators with Fearless), and you have a frustrated opponent.

It is about the enjoyment of taking the list, and the removal of Fearless with a points drop will assist with more Formations and the ability to take miniatures and upgrades you would not normally have points for. Let's get away from the idea of 'Fearless' being a formation ability. Give it to characters (I agree on this), just not the troops. The 'auto rally' does achieve the 'fearless' outlook, is an ability that places them one up on Marines, and gives the opponent to take advantage of a broken unit (through a very small window).

The other thing I would ask is to get away from the niggling rules that are creaping in. Just go with an idea rather than specifics. The idea of shrouding with exceptions (over 45cm) is ludicrous for a game like Epic. Just give them -1 to hit or don't, it should not be a rule based on a ruler. The same goes for the other points mentioned.

I do believe this is a list (apart from the other Ordo at least) that needs to make the NetEA document in a different state if possible. I am happy to work with and support it's development for someone taking it up. Much like the Tau and Necrons, I believe the public can steer this list to an update (at least).

So E&C and Mr Z (and others with interest), I know for a fact you have ideas on the current list - please oblige me (and others reading), what would you change? Do you agree/disagree with anything I have placed forward?

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:16 am 
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Ordo Xenos - has anyone ever played it? My suspiscion is no...


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:56 am 
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Played it twice. It was... flexible. Too flexible if you ask me, given the prices anyway. It reminds me of old Tau. Nothing about the list was overtly powerful, but it did have a synergy that tended to make it very dominant. Of course, that was two games; take it for what it is worth.

I have a very deep interest in this list for reasons having to do with my current project, so whoever takes up the mantel please keep me in the loop. Happy to playtest. Heck, happy to poke at the list some now that I think about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 2:41 am 
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Quote:
happy to poke at the list some now that I think about it.


*pokes Mosc to poke the list*

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:15 am 
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frogbear wrote:
Quote:
happy to poke at the list some now that I think about it.


*pokes Mosc to poke the list*

*Pokes Frogbear to Poke Moscovian about the list*


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:28 am 
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I guess the poke stops here. Give me a day or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:34 pm 
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Thanks Mosc

Appreciate your time - I know you are busy :)

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 Post subject: Re: Changes to the Inquisition Lists
PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:46 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
- Drop Fearless
- Drop costs by 25 points (maybe more - need to do the math)
- Give a special rule (stalwart) which allows them to auto-rally

- Fearless is fine. I replied in detail in the other thread, try it on the table before thinking up an unnecessary novel special rule.
- Why the points change? I've tested the Grey Knights on the tabletop and adjusted the points values carefully. Again, is this based on playtesting? I think they might need a slight points drop because I always err on the side of making powerful things expensive and reducing in points, but I think they're about right and a 25 point reduction across the board is certainly unwarranted.

Quote:
- Rites of exorcism: just state MW or No Inv Save allowed.

Willing to consider. Really not playtested this list enough against Daemons (plenty of chaos opponents, but very few have used daemons).

Quote:
- Shrouding: remove the 45cm rule and simply state "any Indirect Fire or Aircraft attack" has a -1 to hit, or if being really pedantic, "all shooting" is at -1 to hit.

I've gone over this a good bit in the past. 45cm corresponds to the range in 40K that shrouding is reliably effective and is the limit that the GKs can reasonably engage the enemy. They need protection at 45cm or more, they should be able to handle themselves up close. It gives an incentive to close with the GKs - if it were a flat -1, then why not run away and shell them as much as possible?

Quote:
- Fearless Drivers: remove this altogether

Fearless vehicles you mean? Why?

Quote:
- Nemesis Force Weapons - just have this as part of the Rites of Exorcism

Meh, could be done.

Quote:
- Glavian Pilot: Remove

What's everyone's problem with the Glavian? It's a simple character upgrade with no special rules.

P.S. Mosc ... I'm still on board for your project, just haven't heard from you in ages...


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