Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Orders Malleus Grey Knights

 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:21 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9625
Location: Manalapan, FL
Stormwind wrote:
Cool! It's not something that has ready proxies which is a shame. I was looking for them on eBay but the prices were NUTS. I guess we could use Imperial Guard flyers as proxies? Just a thought.


I do! :D

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:22 am
Posts: 191
I believe Shapeways has some stuff for em. Almost positive ive seen them before. Got to search 6mm flyer or epic flyer. Something like that. Also Dystopian Wars has good airplanes that could be used or Dropzone Commander


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:36 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 328
Location: Harrogate
I've done a aquila and almost done with the avrus.
Its fairly basic
Attachment:
DSC_0141.jpg
DSC_0141.jpg [ 535.91 KiB | Viewed 3149 times ]

_________________
http://brokenuniverse1978.blogspot.co.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:52 am
Posts: 25
Ok, so I always hate weighing in on something without having tried it first. I'm still waiting on my Grey Knights models to arrive so haven't actually had a game with them yet. But, I've played EA before, and played Grey Knights in 40K for years, and a couple of things in the list stand out to me as odd.

Why a CC of 4+ and FF of 3+? The thing that really separates Grey Knights from regular Astartes is that everyone has a force weapon and access to the Hammerhand ability. They're decent in the shooting phase with all those psycannons, but they absolutely wreck face in close combat. Grey Knight strike squads, purifiers and interceptors all hit just as hard as the terminators.

So why is their FF ability better than their CC ability? I understand that the Interceptors have an extra attack to represent their choppiness, but the strike squads are just as choppy and have the exact same weapons and abilities, but no extra attack?

Meanwhile, a Grey Knights shooting is really no more dangerous than a regular marine. Obviously the squads with more psycannon are more dangerous, but the rules cover that by rolling more dice.

So I would suggest that Interceptor and Strike formations get a combat boost. Either an Extra Attack, Macro Weapons, a boost to CC 3+, or some combination of the three. At the very least, Strike Squads and Interceptors should have the same combat ability. Ideally, they should have a comparable combat ability to the Terminators, since in the 40K version of the list the units have the same weapons, weapon skill and access to the Hammerhand ability. And at the same time, these squads should have their FF reduced to 4+, and obviously a points adjustment as needed :)

In fact I'd even suggest that each Grey Knight formation might get to re-roll once dice in engagements, either firefight or close combat, to represent their psychic abilities. In the 40K version of the game, putting regular marines into combat with strike squads is an elaborate form of suicide for the tac marines. The Strikes ignore their armour, and wound on a 2+ while the tac marines wound on 4's and don't ignore armour. CC engagements for the Grey Knights in 40K should be where they perform the best, and perform better than a lot of other armies.

I think this would serve to address a couple of issues. It would give Grey Knights a distinct focus that separates them from other Astartes. It also allows them to replicate their background on the tabletop. It would also make them more expensive, and so they would feel more like an elite strike force on the tabletop as you'd have less models and have to be more careful with them.

Anyway, like I said I'm new to the whole 'Grey Knights in Epic' thing so don't be afraid to tell me I'm an idiot. I'm not asking for the Grey Knights to be the best at everything. I think their drawbacks should be long ranged firepower, access to armour and low numbers. Their strengths should be engagements, and specifically close combat and at the moment it doesn't feel that way, IMHO.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:02 pm
Posts: 1774
Location: Newcastle, England
Thanks for your input, Adeptus, what you're saying makes sense.

_________________
Ben Sibbald

Personal & Wargaming Blog: http://www.theancienttrack.blogspot.co.uk

EPIC WIP: Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Eldar


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:52 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:52 am
Posts: 25
Stormwind wrote:
Thanks for your input, Adeptus, what you're saying makes sense.


Thanks, nice to know I'm not a raving loon!

Further to my last, I'm thinking something like this for Strike Squads:

Speed: 15cm
Armour: 4+
Close Combat 3+
Firefight 4+

Nemesis Force Weapons (Macro Weapon, Extra Attack +1)
Psycannon (30cm range, AP5+ AT5+)

4 units per formation, at a cost of 260 points.

That cost basically splits the difference between a regular tactical marine unit, and a grey knight terminator unit. I figure the terminators have better FF value, reinforced and thick rear armour and an extra psycannon shot per base over the strike squads. While the strike squads have better CC value, the teleport rule, and the Nemesis Force Weapons over the tactical marines. Additional bases could be added at a cost of 65 points per base.

Thoughts?

Like I said I haven't played Epic in a long time, and haven't even had a single game with the Grey Knights list, this is all purely hypothetical spitballing on my end!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:05 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Örebro, Sweden
I concur. I have looked at this list as well and thought the same thing. Feels like they should be better in CC than FF. MW is very good in epic though. I don't know 40k rules so well any more though. For them to have macro in epic I think they need to be effective against vehicles as well in 40k, are they? Otherwise I think their rules are better represented with perhaps CC3+ and EA +1.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:52 am
Posts: 25
Honestly I'd probably prefer them at CC3+ and EA +1. They'd be cheaper and you could get more of them on the board.

The thing with the comparison between 40K and EA is that in 40K, all grey knights can choose from the same weapons. Swords, Halberds, Falchions, Hammers and Staves. Most people take two or three hammers in a squad (of ten men) five or six Falchions and some Halberds. This means that all squads have effectively the same armament. If Terminators get MW attacks, then Strike Squads should too. Or if Strike Squads don't, then neither should Terminators.

Terminators having MW attacks is a holdover from Codex Astartes Terminators, where everyone either has a powerfist or a thunderhammer. Grey Knights operate a bit differently, usually having enough hammers to get the job done but also taking a range of other weapons to increase their tactical flexibility.

Of course, having said all that then I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that all Terminator squads take a higher proportion of hammers to tackle heavier targets, giving them the MW and extra attack rule, while other grey knights squads have the lighter force weapons giving them an extra attack, but not macro weapons?

So that would leave the GK squads with:

Speed: 15cm
Armour: 4+
Close Combat 3+
Firefight 4+

Nemesis Force Weapons (Extra Attack +1)
Psycannon (30cm range, AP5+ AT5+)

4 units per formation, at a cost of 225 points. Extra bases at a cost of 55 points per base.

Which actually works out to (almost) the same price they are per base now! Does that seem right? Adding an extra attack in close combat and switching their CC and FF values for no cost? Does 55 points per base seem a fair price? That prices them almost exactly the same as the current Interceptors.

Would we be happy with 4 bases as the minimum formation size? I think smaller teams fits the Grey Knights theme. I don't really have an opinion either way on whether it be dropped to 4 or kept at 6. I only considered dropping it to 4 because with the macro weapons rule I considered earlier, their price was prohibitive at 6 bases per formation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 328
Location: Harrogate
I think you are spot on Adeptus however the extra attack is a bit much, maybe something like first strike (representing psychic powers and the 3+ CC the force halberds) on the Nemesis halberd would work well and the interceptors retaining the extra attack but no first strike (falchions). Otherwise most of the infantry in the list would have two attacks each, even with the reduced numbers this is overpowered (having eight attacks hitting on threes).

_________________
http://brokenuniverse1978.blogspot.co.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 6:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:15 pm
Posts: 1316
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Haven't played the fattdex list, but only the older Ordo Malleus list. These are just some sweeping general remarks and ideas. For what it is worth, I think the "elite" feeling is worth pursuing. Small, expensive formations "feels" better than the route of boosting performance through numbers. Coming from the old school, I was never comfortable with the idea of full blown grey knight armies in the first place, and to me squads of 6-8 strike teams as the basic unit does not sit right with me.

I cannot comment on their current status in 40k, but tweaking marine stats uniformally +1 is a simple way of representing extra war gear/psychic powers.

Tactical equivalent: ff3+, cc3+ - strike team?
devastator equivalent: ff2+ cc4+ - purgation?
assault equivalent: cc2+, ff4+ - purifier?

terminators cc2+, ff 2+, +1 ea

not familiar with interceptors, but having short range teleport could make them equal to warp spiders ruleswise.

This should cause a points increase sufficient to lose a couple of activations and make them feel superior without going the route of special rules and/or fearless.

Regarding psi vs deamons: I found the old Ordo Malleus rules with psi weapons negating invulnerable saves, but chaos armies getting a boost to their daemon pool a colourful rule that tried to give a boost without affecting game balance, but I never played with it in effect. It could be put in as an optional rule if both players agreed to it.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:42 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:52 am
Posts: 25
Consul Avenging Angel wrote:
I think you are spot on Adeptus however the extra attack is a bit much, maybe something like first strike (representing psychic powers and the 3+ CC the force halberds) on the Nemesis halberd would work well and the interceptors retaining the extra attack but no first strike (falchions). Otherwise most of the infantry in the list would have two attacks each, even with the reduced numbers this is overpowered (having eight attacks hitting on threes).


I think that's fair enough. CC 3+ and First Strike for the strike squads, CC3+ and Extra Attack for the Interceptors.

What would a fair price be for units with those stats?

A CC3+ makes them better at combat than regular marines. First Strike makes them even betterer, which suits them I think.

What about the Interceptors? Is the distinction between CC3+ and First Strike, and CC3+ and Extra Attack significant enough to encourage people to take both units instead of one over the other? Or are we relying on the fact that Interceptors have 'jump packs' to differentiate them? I think the extra mobility and the Incinerators gives them enough individuality, IMO. That's kinda how they work in 40K too. They're not any better in combat than the Strike Squads but they're more likely to get there due to their mobility, and their Shunt ability (a once per game 30" move) lets them get into position to use their incinerators (which are their preferred weapon in that game too).

And for Purgators, would we be happy with CC4+ and FF3+? I mean, the majority of the unit is still toting Force Weapons and they still have the Hammerhand ability. Maybe we could keep them as CC3+ but no extra attack or first strike? On the other hand I'd really like them to be better at firefight support than in close combat so a CC4+ 'feels' better. And you can rationalise it away saying that since 40% of the squad has their arms full of heavy weapons, they can't fight as handily in close combat.

Thoughts?

What about an army wide special rule? Something to make them feel a little more elite? I was thinking something like each formation may reroll one dice to hit when in an engagement? To represent their psychic abilities?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:32 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Adeptus wrote:
What about an army wide special rule?

fredmans wrote:
Regarding psi vs deamons: I found the old Ordo Malleus rules with psi weapons negating invulnerable saves, but chaos armies getting a boost to their daemon pool a colourful rule that tried to give a boost without affecting game balance, but I never played with it in effect. It could be put in as an optional rule if both players agreed to it.

I also remeber what fredmans mentions from the old 40 codex were no invulnerable saves could be taken. That's probably hard to balance in epic, but some kind of no saves for deamons would be really cool. This would then have to be balanced with some kind of bonus to the chaos player, like what was suggested above with more deamon points.
Such a rule is probably hard to balanace and likely not worth the hassle since it only applies to chaos armies (and the Avatar i guess). But an optional rule would be great.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:51 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:31 am
Posts: 328
Location: Harrogate
I would suggest these stats.

Strike Team, 300 points for 6 units (no additional units)
Move 15cm 4+Am/3+CC/4+FF
Nemesis Force Weapon, First Strike
Stormbolters (15cm)
Pyscannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+
(Teleport)

Interceptors Team, 250 points for 4 units (no additional units)
Move 30cm 4+Am/3+CC/4+FF
Nemesis Force Weapon, EA +1
Stormbolters (15cm)
Incinerator 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover
(Teleport, Jump Packs)

Purgation Team, 250 points for 4 units (no additional units)
Move 15cm 4+Am/4+CC/3+FF
Nemesis Force Weapon
Stormbolters (15cm)
Pyscannon x2 30cm AP5+/AT5+

Regarding the special rules I feel the no garrison balances out the addition rules on the formations (teleport etc.) also I think formations that can have rhinos should have Superior Tactics rule, as for a special rules against daemons I agree with Borka and it should be optional.

Another point on formations are the storm raven formations and transports I think following the discussion in the space marine forum is the way forward.

Something like this,

Storm Raven, 250 points for 4 units (or 50 per transport unit)
Move 35cm 4+Am/6+CC/4+FF
Missiles 45cm AT5+
Twin Heavybolters 30cm AP4+
Twin Pyscannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+
(Transport 2 tac/dev and 1 dread (termies take up two spots), skimmer, TRA, planetfall)
and if their taken as a formation they come with Hurricanebolters SM EA +1 (or FF 5+ 2x Hurricanebolters SM EA +1)

_________________
http://brokenuniverse1978.blogspot.co.uk


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:51 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:52 am
Posts: 25
I like it a lot!

What does SM stand for in regards to the Hurricane Bolters? I like those rules for the storm turkeys.

What about Dreadknights? Does anyone have any experience using them? Once again, in 40k they are a unit that performs much better in close combat so again I think their FF and CC values should be switched. They basically function like a giant Terminator in 40k with the same 2+ save and 5+ invulnerable save, so I would consider giving them reinforced and thick rear armour. Also, they practically never see play without the personal teleporter upgrade so I would consider giving them jump packs and a 30cm move. But I have no idea what a unit like that would cost! I'm thinking at least 100 points!

I guess the issue with the teleporters is that, since they have to remain in cohesion with the rest of their formation they'd only get mileage from it if they were attached to an interceptor formation, so I dont think there'd be many complaints if the teleport option was not considered.

EDIT: On the other hand, it would allow them to keep pace with infantry mounted in transports. On the other, other hand, forcing players to choose between a formation upgrade that can be transported with them, or one that can only deploy with them by foot or by teleport might be good too? We don't want people to have their cake and eat it too, after all!

And I really like the idea of a special "vs daemons" optional special rule!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Orders Malleus Grey Knights
PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:22 am
Posts: 191
I agree with the status from Consul Avenging Angel.

I have a 3.5k Grey knight epic forgeworld model army and played it numberous times. Suffice it to say, they were the most expensive army I have bought and never see play anymore because of how terrible they are currently.

They are ias it is now, vastly over costed for not providing much.

The suggestion of MW or +1 Attack is a bit much though. I agree with the 3+ CC and having first strike makes sense to me.

I have not tried Dreadknights ever. There isnt a model that really comes close to it IMO, so has been hard to play it.

A rule for fighting demons is very fluffy, but not needed. Rules that specifically make your force better at fighting another can throw off balance of it. Your unit is balanced for the points it is at now, but then gains something special for fighting a demon and now its undercosted. If you have the ability and not fighting demons, it will feel like your over paying for them.

Over all though I am very much for those new stats, as my GK are in retirement until fixed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 101 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net