OK, bringing this over from Lord I's thread, I want to address this:



This is why I presented this to you all I didnt realize that would take a shooting attack away from them.

OK, how about this? What about the "Dominion" being an upgrade to a Sisters formation, providing 2 Dominion units and transport for X? They could still have the stats I am asking for, but would only be useful in a mechanized Sister formation, and wouldnt help with the Double Tap but WOULD help with supporting fire or direct assaults. That seems to be their strength anyway.

I was thinking about the difference between Arco-Flagellants and Sisters Repentia, and some of the confusion that was expressed in keeping the two units looking different from the other.

In 40K, Flagellants are nearly double the cost of Repentia, and almost NO ONE uses Repentia in 40K. Point for point they just couldnt compete.

Flagellants are Fearless, have Invulnerable Saves, and massive Power Weapon attacks.
Repentia have Holy Rage, rightly represented by Infiltration, and massive Eviserators.

Bottom line?
Armor save: I'd give both units 5+, with the Arcos getting Invulnerable Save. Zombo has done this
CC and FF: Neither gets FF, which Zombo has represented. As for CC, I think Repentia would be a 4+ and Arcos would be 3+ to represent their extra attacks, or lethality. I think each deserves MW for sure, with at LEAST the Arcos getting the EA+1. This is really close to what Zombo has statted up.

I'd almost change the cost of the Repentia to 200 for the 6 plus the Mistress, and increase the Arco's by 50 points, maybe, to 6 for 350. This puts them in line with a solid unit of Eldar Aspects, makes them "almost" twice as expensive as the Sisters, and much nastier in CC.

So, I'd maybe do this:

Sisters Repentia
15cm
Armor 5+, CC 4+, FF -
Weapon: Eviscerators (Base Contact), MW
Fearless, Infiltrators

Arco-Flagellants
15cm
Armor 5+, CC 3+, FF -
Weapon: Electro-Flails (Base Contact), EA+1, MW
Fearless, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save

This would certainly give the two units some differences. The Arcos would cost more, wouldnt be able to use transports, but would annihilate anything they get their "hands" on. The Repentia would be less brutal, but still effective, and much more mobile. They would likely be the unit Double-Tapping with a Battle Sister unit augmented with Dominions. I actually "Hmmm'd" as I wrote that, since I hadnt really thought of it that way. That could be brutal.

So, since I dont know points, would 200 for the Sister Repentia and 350 for Arco-Flagellants be correctly priced? I think the stats are right, but its the points I dont know. Both have their uses...but the Repentia can be augmented as a Formation while the Arcos cant, which gives the user yet another tactical decision to make. This is a good thing.

The other thought I had was a revelation that was revealed quite a few games into learning how the Sisters played in 40K.

They arent a shooty army. It seems like such a simple thing to say, but when I finally grasped that, my playstyle altered and I did a little bit better.

Fielding an all-Sisters force, I had exactly 3 shooty units, and sometimes 4: 2 units of Retributors, each with 4 Heavy Bolters, and 1 or 2 Exorcists.

The rest of the force was Battle Sisters, which combined with the Book of St. Lucius and Faith Points for Invulnerable 3+ saves, meant I could get them stuck in and they would hold. They might not win, because in HtH the Sisters just werent awesome, but they would hold up important units while my other short-ranged units jumped around:

Counter charges from arco-flagellants
Hit-and-Run on my Seraphim (2 units! Loved 'em!)
Drive bys with Dominions

As of right now, looking at the list, that is how a list would shape up. The Exorcist is an AWESOME tank, and Im not sure 2x AT4+ is good enough for it, because 45cm range is horrible The only other ranged unit in the army is the Retributors, or IG backup.

Because of this, the CC of the army needs to be spot on. I dont think you can skimp here, because like the Tyranids, the Sisters need to get stuck in to do their damage. They have no long ranged firepower without IG Leman Russes added to IG Infantry, a Titan, or Baneblade. Their army should play like this.

Thats all for now!

Ok, a few points to cover:

Dominions: It now looks like you're trying to invent a niche for them that just isn't there. Given that the niche you thought they had wasn't possible, do you really think they actually add anything to the list, given that they'd just be a worse version of retributors with multimeltas? That said, I am definitely considering going to 2x Heavy Bolter for Retributors, which might give dominions a way in.

The other issue is one of model representation; a unit of Dominions will look very similar to a normal battle sister unit, which could cause problems.

Arcos/Repentia: I'm not convinced that Arco Flagellants deserve a MW attack. Sure, they have power weapons in 40k, but then so do howling banshees. Power weapons on low strength units do not usually translate to MW in epic, they usually translate to a great CC value. MW CC is purely for very powerful weapons like Power Fists and Evicerators. Not giving them MW also serves a role at epic scale of differenciating them from Repentia.

Equally, however, I'm not happy with the way I have flagellants represented either. As I mentioned before, these are largely filler stats until a better idea comes along. Maybe first strike to represent their stimm injectors? Maybe a low CC value but 2 extra attacks? Maybe something more like Lord I's system where they'd teleport into a formation midgame, kinda like summoning daemons? I just don't know what to do with them at all.

I'm not going to drop the price on Repentia without paytest evidence, because I will be dropping the "0-1 per other detachment" bit, and I don't want an all fearless army to be a tempting proposition. Repentia should be a useful secondary formation, but not the core of the list.

The Shooting/Close Combat Balance: At epic scale sisters certainly aren't a shooty army, but they are a FF army. Sure they have CC specialists, but on average they're better at close ranged bolter fire than charging into combat.

40k wargear like the book doesn't come into it at this sclae (other than in the invulnerable save of characters) and faith points are represented by praying. Note that in my list only seraphim and characters are faithful, just like in 40k, but I upped the power of faithful to compensate (it now affects all units in the formation including transports, and can now be used to regroup).

Exorcists: Exorcists are basically predator equivilents at this scale. The trouble is, they're awesome in 40k because a 48" range isn't a big deal there, that's still enough to hit just about anything on the table. Unfortunately that translates to epic as 45cm, which is rather sucky. I am tempted to up the range to 60cm, or possibly to give them indirect fire, because the missile pipes fire directly upwards.

2xAT4+ is an increase from LI's list, where they were D3xAT5+. I'd rather not increase them more without playtesting.

I allowed them as formation upgrades in this list (rather than just their own formation like LI's list) in order to allow formations to have at least a small amount of ranged fire power for laying BMs on enemy formations at range.

Can anyone think of any other potential Ecclesiarchy units/formations? Fraternis Milita would be basically identical to Redemptionists, (the datafax was designed to represent both). The big tracked-cathedral-thingy is eventually going to go there once I have worked out what the hell to do with it.

Any more thoughts on having Lightning Strike Fighters, rather than Thunderbolts in the list? Sisters use them in dawn of war.

I'm looking to update the list today.

Thanks for the reply. All very good points, really.

If you change the Rets to 2x Heavy Bolters then yes, the Melta Dominions will have a place as an add-on. If you dont, well, no, there wont be any need for them

I had considered asking for Indirect on the Exorcist, as there is no artillery at all in the list as is. It might not be such a bad thing.

Representing the Dominions over regular Sisters? I had indeed thought of that. From the looks of certain prototypes I saw I was planning Sister units with 4 models, with no Heavy Weapons. The Rets and Doms each would get 2 HW's, but the Rets would need a piece of plasticard added to "beef up" their weapon. Whether that is realistic or not, I dont know!

Now Im really psyched to test this list out against my buddy's Space Marines. We'll see if I cant get a game in tomorrow.

I found this while poking around today:

http://www.netepic.org/EZINE/files/pdfI013.pdf

Just kinda fun to look at other things.

Dominions shouldn't have a ranged shooting attack. Instead i would give them awesome FF stats.

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Yeah, we've agreed on that.

I think for the next version of the list I'll give dominions a try, but if they stick out like a sore thumb I'll strip them out again.

Yeah, I've looked at that, it's crazy. There's translating things too directly from 40k, and then there's this....

Expect an update today.

List updated on first page.

That's just the nature of NetEpic - lots of special rules because that's what they like.

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Arco v Repentia - I'd say the thing to do is give them different roles, rather like Scorpions and Banshees. I don't know the list in 40K, but based on the discussions in this thread, it looks like Repentia are more validly MW so make their niche hitting heavy targets. Arcos can be more general purpose, either with a high CC or multiple attacks. Arcos will also end up being pretty good against heavy targets, but they can be more expensive as well. The choices would then be an expensive and effective all-rounder formation or a cheaper heavy attack formation that suffers against lighter and more horde-like formations.

That seems like it would accomplish nearly everything both of you had in mind - Repentia that are core and useful but difficult to use as the main bulk of the army, Arcos that are bigger and meaner but that don't automatically overshadow the Repentia.

From a non-Sisters-fan perspective it seems to me like there would be a true choice between them (once the points are adjusted accordingly, of course).

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EDIT: And, of course, you did something sort of like that.

I think they need a close eye on their relative points. The stats in 1.1 are awfully close. What the Arcos gain with Invulnerable and higher CC can be compared against the ability to be transported and MWCC. Repentia + 3 rhinos might end up a bit better than 6 Arcos.

Also, is it intentional that you can put the SC character onto a Fearless Repentia unit? Isn't it sort of a no-Brainer that you would want your SC to be Fearless?

BTW, I really like the fact that flagellants are 15cm move and no transport. They're default deployment will be to garrison them forward as if they are herded forward in front of the main battle line.

Thanks for the update!

The "Evicerator/Evicerators" seems to give MW or +1EAMW depending on the unit... characters seem to get the extra attack while infantry don't... I don't think the simple pluralizing of the weapon is enough of a name difference, especially when the, persumed, more weapons when it's plural has less of a game effect.

Thoughts?

It's an EA list, not netepic.