You should probably not bother doing anything with the Grey Kinght list then, until you can see how much things change in the new Codex (And great changes are coming).

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Oh, well, I've been playing with AP5+/AT5+ for quite a while now.

Not a huge deal. I could change it to an assault cannon with the same stats, right? I might do that to avoid hassle. Plasma cannon just match 40K better.


Okay, noted and I'll give this serious considertation.


I understand but I am not convinced that it is the right thing for the list. Changing the rule associated with them is one thing, but axing another. Anyway, feedback noted, I don't want to argue on this.


Like I said, I don't have a problem with the re-rolls in my games - but feedback noted. I shall give it some thought if there's a better mechanic ... but the re-roll scales with the number of staff units and shows both offensive (mystic, sage) utilities and defensive (churigeon, familiars, etc).


What's the specific problem with the way it is now? As I said, I find that it works out that way naturally. A restriction adds more complexity to the list.

What abuse are we trying to avoid here?


Fine, I'll propose some stats and once you're happy with them we can do that.


This seems to be a recurring problem. It's not necessarily a glavian pilot - it's just a name for "generic imperial flying ace prodigy." Similar to the gun cutter - it's a large, armoured and armed inquisitorial shuttle just with a specific name. Ref the "counts as" note!

Anyway, glavian is gone, so lets not worry about it too much!


Eh, I'm not sure I'd take one at 125, ever. I also don't really find much use for the planetfall ability either. I'll put it to 100 and test.


Again, there are battles fought during an exterminatus in the Eisenhorn trilogy, but the point is the same as why Daemon/Witch hunters get orbital bombardments in 40K (and, until recently, were the only ones who did, despite all armies being able to do it in theory). It's a reminder that they have the big guns up there - it might not be a full exterminatus, but it's bigger bang than anyone else can. That's the thought, anyway.


Problem is, that was the focus in the first place - that the Inquisition can draw on anything they want. Eh, maybe Valkryies should go, although we've been here on the Aquila and Gun-cutters before and I think both should be there - the Inquisitor's armoured shuttle and then the drop ships. The primary focus of this list is a stike force, so the list is purposefully heavy on spacecraft and aircraft. But maybe Valkyries muddy the water and compete with Aquila.


Do you have any specific rumours you'd like to share?

I'd just go with calling it a plasma cannon, several lists have already made the change and the more that do, the more likely the netEA will take notice and make it official



I can only respond that my opponent found the rerolls "ridiculous" during the only playtest when I've used them. I also felt this way.



No particular abuse, just trying to be representative.



No matter the source, a better pilot of any kind is a much smaller effect than tech marines or apothacaries. But this is moot, so let's leave it there.



Bear in mind that the lunar for example costs 150 points, doesn't have pinpoints so must be preplotted, and doesn't allow planetfalling. 100 is very, very cheap for any kind of spacecraft. Hell it's worth it just to deny the other player turning up on turn one, even if it does nothing.



That's not a focus, that's a lack of focus. If the list is based on eisenhorn then go with what they generally use there. Generally is the important word here. You yourself attacked my list for having things that were perfectly plausible background-wise, but not that common. Remove whatever the less common options are. Not only will this focus the list more, it'll make it much easier to test and balance.

Without fully reviewing the list (I am at work atm), and the 'need' to keep units based on scratchbuilds etc. would this not be a simple answer?

If I was starting from scratch, I would have one list for the Ordos with options based on selections or upgrades, and then have your own 'fanlist' for depictions from such novels as Eisenhorn.

If I am going to get involved with feedback, I would rather see the updated version; after all the feeback given so far and what was accepted or overlooked.

It is definately a force (Grey Knights) that draws alot of interest (due to books), so it would be good to start seeing development on it move forward.

People want to play Grey Knights. The rest are nice, but Grey Knights are a necessity. They should be done above all others.

There is no need to retain units that I've personally built, that was a (foolish) throwaway comment. However, these units are (a) my favourites, (b) the units that are actually unique to the Inquisition and (c) have received a large amount of positive feedback in the past, particularly the gun-cutter - for example when playing at tournaments.


After six or seven years of finetuning and playtesting, I'm not going to start from scratch. Furthermore, this has always been a "fanlist" project as Inquisitorial forces, even Grey Knights, were never on the official "to do" list.

Finally, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting you, you seem to be under the impression that the Eisenhorn novels are somehow unrepresentative of the Inquistion. These novels are really the only source for descriptions of the Inquisition as a whole (the Daemon- and Witch-hunter codecies are clearly heavily derived from Abnett's work) and specifically the only real source for large-scale (i.e. Epic-scale!) Inquisitorial Task Forces. There's some info obviously from the codecies, Apocalypse has a nice force list, there's tidbits in the imperial armour books and the Grey Knight novels are obviously useful for the Ordo Malleus. The Inquisition War trilogy is really too dated to be much use.

So what's the focus of the list? Given that the Inquisition can have literally any troop type in the Imperium at their disposal, the list must have a focus. Most people are familar with the Eisenhorn books (if you aren't, I recommend them - by far and away the best three books ever to come out of Black Library), and since they give the best descriptions of a full task force - particularly for the Ordo Xenos, the ONLY large-scale mobilisation of Deathwatch that I know of in the background - and chiefly designed to be an airborne force with orbital support. Things like the gun-cutter are ubiquitous, there are many examples of Inquisitors with personal armoured shuttles all of which correspond fairly well to one-another. I've noted in the army-list a list of examples (under "counts as") that it could be - from the Inquisitorial Shuttle in IA2 to a navy pinnace - but given that they're all pretty similar I'm going to make a single profile and give it the most recognisable name (gun-cutter) from Eisenhorn as most people would recognise that and I'd bet most people wouldn't recognise an Inquistiorial Shuttle. I've used this trick several times - it's a specific name for what is essentially a generic unit. Similarly, Death Cultists could represent a range of choppy-death psycho living weapons the Inquisitor could have available (see the unit entry for a list) but it's far more aesthetically pleasing to call the unit "death cultist" (which gives a defined image) than "generic elite combat specialist henchmen".

The Grey Knights are there and there's the potential to make a pure-GK force. It's a slight challenge but perfectly workable with Navy and Titan support.


I will do that. I was hoping to trawl for any playtest feedback first.


Grey Knights are the most playtested and I'm pretty happy with them. The only thing I'm not sure about is their Rites of Exorcism ability, I've not had much chance to use them against Chaos players with daemons (I've encountered very few players that use daemons in real life).

Imperial Armour IV focuses on the Ordos Xenos at war, as the story is about an Ordos Xenos Inquisitor with an army at his back undertaking a several-day battle against Tyranids.

Imperial armour VII features an Inquisitor Lord with many lesser Inquisitors fighting a Chaos traitor army. Ultimately Daemons begin to break through into the material realm and Grey Knights are summoned to deal with them, again the Inquisition are at the heart of the story and are heavily featured throughout.

To dismiss the Imperial Armour books' features on the Inquisition as "tidbits" is highly innacurate.


... the Grey Knights are going to be (in) the next Codex to be released.

Oh and they're releasing a Stormraven kit for the Grey Knights.

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I've not got the Imperial Armour VII yet, and I'm keen to get my hands on it, but the Anphelion project covers a joint Elysian/Red Scorpion action under the command of an Inquisitor. It's got a few nice ... tidbits, but there's not much in there that has any real impact on the list, it doesn't really have any actual Inquistorial forces involved other than Lok himself. Indeed, I've removed the Adeptus Astartes from the Task Force options, so I've moved away from this direction entirely.

I'm happy to look to Forgeworld for fringe lists like the Elysians or for Forgeworld-specific vehicles, but in general I like to stay away from their fluff - it's only really read by the true Forgeworld nutters and it's sometimes somewhat divergant from the core canon. The Red Scorpions are continuously referred to as Legio Astartes for example - not a big deal, but jars with existing background. Other things like the Grey Knight Razorback directly goes against the deliberate design choice to deny Grey Knights rhinos and razorback. Of course the same can be said of BL canon - I'm not touching the "Deathwatch" series of novels, multilasers and all - but the Eisenhorn trilogy meshes well with the two codecies.

I'm not saying I'm going to ignore it altogether, but I'm not going to stick razorbacks in just because they're in IAVII for example.


Okay, thanks. Yeah that's all I had heard too. Well, again, we'll see as and when the new codex is released.

Everything they print is checked over in greater detail than the "fluff" in the Black Library books that you use as your primary sources.


Take this as you will : Generally when Forgeworld release a product that hits within 1 year of a Core Studio release (As with their Grey Knight releases), they'll have been conferring very closely with the Core Studio as they work on what will be happening in the Core Codex.

Because of that, you can use Forgeworld releases as a weather stick to guage which way the Core Codex will move. Juding by Forgeworld's endeavours, and what was written about the Grey Knights in Codex Blood Angels, it is obvious which way the wind is blowing here.

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I would rather see the project 'marked' as an official list rather than a fanlist.

What is the point of trying to create a fanlist if it does not have the base to compare to? It would have to change once the 'official' project
started and placed a mandate on what things were etc.

What I would want is to have an official list that all others can draw from. That is what I thought you were out to achieve.

I think you're too worked up in notions of "officialdom" given that the plug has been pulled on SG - it's nice to have some kind of centralisation and a basic standard for tournaments, etc., but the litmus test is what lists are being played. But anyway, the idea is that yes, the three ITF ordo lists will become NetEA "official" as the baseline daemon/witch/alienhunters lists.

I am a person that likes structure and order - hence the reason why I play chaotic forces

When the list is updated, I will come back to this. Till then, I think others have said enough for me.

Either way, it is either a fanlist or it is not - I think that depiction is important when discussions are sought on what units should exist and what should not.

frogbear: Every single list on taccomms is a fanlist. Everything that's not on the GW website is a fanlist. Your own lists are fanlists.

Yes but when yourself and E&C start talking about dogma and what a list should be, you are driving it towards an 'official' list.

Lord I should be able to have anything he wants for a 'fanlist' and your discussions should then centre around what is balanced and what is not. Telling Lord I he should not have this or that for a 'fanlist' is ludicrous IMO.

If it was to be put forward as NetEA approved (in the future) and therefore count as 'official' for tournaments (by most organisers) then your 'back-and-forth' is justified. Otherwise, if Lord I wants a cutter with a glavian pilot, then why not?

Yes, I like structure and order to things. It is pretty black and white for me after my past experiences - it is either a 'fanlist' or it is not. To me there is no such thing as 'they are all fanlists'. Anything being placed forward for NetEA approval is vying for an 'official status' and deserves the full attention of players as it's inclusion will effect the game worldwide, and also form the basis for future lists that use it as a guide or a sounding board.

Am I wrong or even misguided in this observation?

Frogbear: you're misunderstanding. This is already the netEA official list. That doesn't make it not a fanlist.