7 MW attacks? I presume you must have had a priest in there then?

The sisters sucking at ranged AT fire is deliberate and pretty much exactly the same as 40k. That's the reason exorcists exist

To sum up the definite changes so far:

Remove Order Famulous Inductions, rename imperial guard company to Fraternis Militia and move to ecclesiarchy section
Remove sentinels*, baneblade, thunderbolts, marauders and lunar class cruiser
Remove Priest upgrade from Adepta Sororitas Convent
Remove faithful from the sororitas characters and add it to all sororitas units other than repentia (including vehicles)
Change faithful rule to only affect faithful units again.
Palatine gains inspiring and MW on the CC EA
Reduce Allies contingent to ¼
Reduce exorcist range back to 45cm. For now…
Increase Immolator FF to 3+

Other things that haven't really been discussed much but I'm planning to do anyway:

Add Lightning Fighter - It'll be the only air asset and part of the 25% allies allowance, and I'd like to try it out at least. Forgeworld do make a model for it too.



Remove Supreme Commander from Repentia - Priests make sense in repentia, but I don't think HIGH priests belong there; they'd be leading the redemptionists or fraternis militia.

Add dominions to transport options for rhino, immolator and repressor - Left out as a typo in the current version.

Rename Cardinal and Priest Evicerator to Holy Evicerator - to avoid a weapon name/stat clash with repentia.

Still under debate:

Hunter vs Banisher - I'd really like other people's opinions on this. Or, as a wild thought, exorcists have vertically firing anti-armour missiles, so how about something like this?



Retributor and Dominions - I'd rather just rename Retributors than fudge the Dominion weapon stats.

Arco Flags - No bloody idea. I'm generally not in favour of special rules created for a single unit, but then their abilities really can't be represented well in epic without one. Definitely prefer to keep without MW though, to differenciate from repentia.

Penitents - I'll keep the invulnerable save if Lord I insists, even though I don't really see the point of it. In terms of it's weapons, how about CC4+ with MW EA+2? It's on average the same as Lord I's version just without the D3. It also neatly represents the two combat arms, each of which is effectively a dreadnought power fist.





* Removing sentinels leaves the list with no scouts at all. Just something we should bear in mind.

I'd leave Sentinels. There are civilian versions (at least in the Ciaphas Cain novels), and the militia could likely convert them quickly.

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Thats a lot of useful stuff removed. Taking a SHT out means you have to put something else in, as that is a HUGE amount of ranged firepower to be without.

Oh, and yes, I had a priest in with the Repentia

BatRep is up...

Hmmm, not sure I like some of those stats. Why does it have a 6+ save? They're supposed to be much more lightly armoured than thunderbolts. Not keen on the "lascannons" stat or concept.

Then again, I tried my stats out today and found them very overpowered. I was definitely going to consolidate the two lascannons to one twin cannon and probably reduce the range.

In what lists are they currently used?

Elysians... and I think that's it.

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I would prefer to see the Sisters use the Hunter, or even the Whirlwind Hyperios, rather than inventing a new type of tank.

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Also having seen the "Pray" mechanic used a few times, I reckon it's a bit useless as-is.

I suggested to Zombo that instead of "Pray" granting the following:

- Fearless
- Invulnerable Save
- Thick Rear Armour

It should instead grant the following:

- Fearless
- Reinforced Armour

As that would actually have a serious in-game effect, and there would be a reason to use the "Pray" order other than just for fun.

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Nice idea, E&C.

I want to see Zombo do a BatRep with his list. I need to see someone else running the Sisters and the problems they face. The formations tend to be small, unless it is fully mechanized, and lacking in ranged firepower. Do it, mister

I played a game against E&C today but didn't keep track of it too well and the points may have been slightly off, so no batrep, sorry.

I'll try to get one done this week though.

BTW I can't really imagine why you wouldn't fully mechanise; you can do it cheap with rhinos and sisters lack ranged fire so aren't much good as garrisons. Maybe repentia or retributors could be ok garrisoned on foot, I guess.

Very happy with all of these. If you think the list needs sentinels, then it doesn't bother me too much, but I think they can be replaced by penitents in stature if not role...


Be aware that other lists use Lightnings and they're a bitch to work into the rules. The stats below correspond to their weapons:


But as you've already found, that's insanely powerful. Note that such a fighter can fire without ever needing to get into bomber defensive weapon range and it can outshoot Eldar fighters. Aircraft weapon ranges are all wonky anyway.

Personally, I'd just leave it for the time being - the Lightning is a whole can of worms that can be addressed later when you have the rest of the list in shape, and I'd check out the Elysians for what they've been doing because again you have the cross-list continuity problem.


This was something I was going to bring up - I'm a little unsure about a Redemptionist "supreme commander" anyway. I would have thought all the tactical planning goes to the military forces while the priests whip their congregations into a frothing frenzy rather than coordinating a precise assault. Just a thought. I think the canoness is enough, I'm not sure you need a cardial at all, or at least, not a supreme commander one. Also I'd give preachers and cardinals invulnerable saves (rosarius!) and I'm not convinced they should have Fearless. Maybe Fearless only on the cardinal? Then your preacher would match up with my priest.


Hmm, don't remember why Repentia don't just have MW extra attack. If you'd like to give the repentia this to keep the statlines the same, fine with me.


I see where you're going but given how vital Exorcists are, there'd be an unprecidented flak umbrella. I think a dedicated tank would be better, even if fluffwise Banishers are simply Exorcists fitted with AA missiles.


Let me have a think about these and I'll come up with a proposal. I'll reexamine what I want them to be - in the last version they went from a dedicated formation to an upgrade...and looking at the list, I don't think any formation can actually take them as upgrades. Genius.

I think I might just use them as a new Inquisitorial Retinue unit for Witch Hunters and leave it at that.


Okay with me on the +2. To be honest, I think I might just axe them entirely from the Inquisitorial list in which case you can do what you like. As for the Inv save, they're essentially just large arcoflagellants. There's no real reason the arco's deserve an invulnerable in the first place - it is just to represent the fact that they will ignore injuries and keep coming until physically dismembered. The Daemonhunters codex predates the Feel No Pain USR, which would probably have been a better rule. The Penitents are just the same - they have a "daemonic" ability to ignore stunned and shaken for the same reason, they just keep coming despite injuries. So I'd be inclined to either give them both Invulnerables or both not.

As for Pray, I originally thought to give them Reinforced Armour. This seems too good - I wanted it to be more psychological (i.e. Fearless) and allowing them to make a last stand (thick rear armour) than magically bouncing bullets off their faith, as it is in 40K and that seems outright silly. I also think it should be something that's going to make a little difference not game dominating - Reinforced Armour makes a huge difference. But I'm open to pursuading on this.

If we did go for Reinforced Armour I'd definately want it on the Sisters themselves only and not the tanks.

Well the current rule is basically doing nothing in any of the test games we've played to date, which is why I proposed making it more powerful (RA).


Why?

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Pentients may look like sentinels but they don't do the same thing ingame at all. Penitents are more dreadnought equivilents. Plus as has been stated sentinels are low tech and often found in PDF and civilian usage. Perfect for fraternis militia.



Yep, found out how bent they are today. Not keen on the Elysian stats though, there's some weirdness going on in them. I'm going to combine the two lascannons into a single twin lascannon (that's what the epic book collectors' section lists anyway), and drop the lascannon range to 30. I'll have a chat with whoever does the Elysians too.



Understood. I may just put the elysian version in for now, though there are several things I really dislike about it.



Ever read "The Redeemer" graphic novel? That's a redemptionist supreme commander if ever I saw one. Again, this is an Ecclesiarchy list, not just sisters, so high ranks of the Ecclesiarchy can be present. They absolutely deserve supreme commander status.



Priests are effectively Commisar equivilents. Fearless is definite, they're utterly devoted unto death and will not quit under the heaviest pressure. Redeptionist priests are very possibly the most fearless humans in the galaxy. In terms of game mechanics, add an Invulnerable save and lose fearless and you're identical to a palatine just without commander. I'd like to keep a distinction between them; heroines give invulnerable save and commander, priests give fearless, both are inspiring.



No idea why Repentia would have an extra attack; they're only going to attack with their evicerators so all their attacks should be macro, and they don't have enough attacking ability to justify multiple macro attacks. They're fine how they are.



Yes, it was just a wild thought and the more I think about it the more impractical it becomes. Still not keen on making stuff up without precident or requirement.



That's all well and good for your list, but I don't have retinues for them to join! Either way the stats need to match across.



Agreed that they don't really belong in a witch hunters list. I can see your point in invulnerables, I guess I'll add it for now.



Frankly, right now, pray is basically pointless. It's a lovely little fluff rule, but it is almost never useful compared to the other options. Thick Rear Armour is very situational, Invulnerable Saves only add 16% survivability and Fearless is not that useful given that the formation can't engage when praying.

I'd like to try out E&C's idea and see if it has merit. I'll certainly make it an option more worth considering.



Why? Most of the tanks have 5+ armour so would gain a less from this change than the sisters would. The sisters get an extra 4+ save, the tanks just get an extra 5+ save. As I previously mentioned, the tanks are driven and crewed by sisters, who will be fervently praying too. Space marine tanks get the full ATSKNF rule, I see no reason why sisters tanks shouldn't be protected by their crew's faith. Given that most of the time this is used the tanks will be sacrificing the +1 from sustain fire, or not able to shoot at all it seems a fair trade-off.

Fine, I don't object if you think them required.


I seem to recall being around in the inception of those Lightning stats and giving up in frustration. I agree, they're odd.


Meh, I would have thought that they'd leave the strategic military planning to their chief military officers, it just feels wrong to me, but it was just a thought.


Fair enough. I guess Redemptionist priests might be more Fearless, although it should be noted that unlike commissars or Chaplains, priests of any kind don't improve morale in 40k, but then again Redemptionist priests do have morale-boosting abilities. I'd rather not give Stormtroopers a Fearless priest to lead them so for the time being then the Priest/Preacher distinction can remain.


Fair enough. Priests could get just boring old "power weapons" to avoid the name clash?


Well, I'll think about what I want them to do, then I'll propose something. They could be attached to the Redemptionists in your list, either instead or addition to their own formation.


Okay... I just have a dislike of the mental image of the "faith shield" protecting the sisters and their vehicles like a giant forcefield. It seems ... unsubtle ... but by all means try it out.

I understand that under the previous incarnation it was only situationally useful - pretty much the only time is when defending an objective as a last stand or preparing for an assault... but that seemed pretty in-character to me. After all, it's a rule there purely for theme purposes, rather than for any real requirement.

I'm willing to consider the change though, I'd like to see it tested.