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Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
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Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Hello all.

In the renegades supliment it states that imperial titans can be chosen by chaos as minions to greater demons and demon primarchs.  It mentions that reaver and warhounds may be chosen along with the warlord - even though the warlord was the only "official" card included in the box.

Question though - does this include the Imperator?  Obviously, the renegade box was released WAY before Titan legions came out, so wasent mentioned.

I've seen lots of chaos imperator conversions, but never knew if they were "official".

Thanks.
Author:  silentbob27 [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
I guess it is how you read things.

The Imperator is a Special card (but so are individual Warlords and Reavers), which would seem to group them in with the Imperial Titans qualifier. BUT, the Renegades book only calls out Warlords, Reavers, and Warhounds as minions, which leaves out the Imperator. Far as I can find, there wasnt a qualifier added in the Titan Legions book (thought I may have missed it). I doubt there was a FAQ out there anywhere...

So, if you go by the Titan Legions rulebook, it says you may take 1 special card for each company card in your army. Now, Chaos doesnt have company cards, just Greater Daemons and Minions. However, you are allowed to take IG Allies so long as it doesnt exceed 50% of your total points.

We have always played that to take an Imperator for Chaos, you needed to take a IG company for the Imperator. This usually isnt a problem cause if you are taking an Imperator, you are playing a high points game anyway. Most times we just picked the Tech-Guard Titan Defence Company for 400 pts and put them in the Imperator. Doing this means that we had 2650 pts tied up in allies. 6K pts or so per side does take a long time to get through, but with all the titan lovin, is quite fun.

This all being said, do what you want. If your buddies are still playing EPIC, do whatever you guys think is right/fair.
Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
2nd edition epic is wonderful for blurry rules :)

For example - chaos can take any space marnine support cards as support for chaos marine legions - but you dont really know that unless you read a particular Q&A section of an old white dwarf!

Titans were odd too - everyone "knew" imperial forces could take them as special cards - but where does it say that?

Now back to point - Can the Imperator be chosen for "normal" imperial armies, or only titan legion / knight armies?  

If it has that little symbol on the card that states its a special card for titan legion / knight armies, then "normal" imperial armies cannot take them - and need a company card of allied tech units to include it.  In your example - the tech guard defense company could NOT be included in the chaos army, because they are tech guard, not technically imperial guard.  (Tech unit cards are more purplish rather than blue and feature the winged skull, rather than imperial eagle).

If this is the case, I would say "NO" for chaos, because it isnt "technically" an imperial guard unit, and thus, cannot be included in the 50% allowance for traitor allies.

If it is just a general titan special card, like individual warlords, reavers, and warhound scout titan squads that ANY imperial army can use, then I would say it's a big YES for inclusion in chaos forces.

I dont have the army cards on me right now (at work), but I'll try to dig up the card tonight...
Author:  silentbob27 [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Ah yes, the cards are definitely purplish. Problem is Tech guard ARE Imperial Guard.

Page 31-32 of the Codex Titanicus.
Choosing the Imperial Guard
Your Imperial Guard force represents an IG regiment which is part of an Imperial Army. The Army itself may include SM's, Titan Legions (with tech guard and knights), squats...

They are also combined in the Imperial Data Sheet on page 101.
Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
If thats really the case, I'd say that makes the Imperator a "general" special card titan, and thus, legal to be taken in a chaos army.

HOWEVER - when the rule book states:

"Your Imperial Guard force represents an IG regiment which is part of an Imperial Army. The Army itself may include SM's, Titan Legions (with tech guard and knights), squats..."

Doesnt that mean as allies?  I mean technically, the army CAN include those units - but they arent actually part of the IG army.  Doesnt the same section also state that the IG can take eldar if fighting orcs or chaos?  

OR - Does it truely mean that the IG army can freely combine units from all those armies without limit?  

And if thats the case - that doesnt really make those other units actually IG units - if that were the case, then chaos could take squat stuff as traitor units too right?

:oo: Confusing.
Author:  Chaplain Leviticus [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
I don't see anything wrong with a Choas Imperator.  Pretty expensive glass jaw anyway.
Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Does anyone know if "fluff-wise" it would make sense?  I mean, are they "newer" titans, or did they exist back during the heresy when the traitor titan legions turn-coated?
Author:  silentbob27 [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Yup, they were around during the Heresy. There is quite a bit of fluff on it. Mainly in book form.

As for Squat allies, remember, they did make Chaos Squats.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Emperor-class Titans did exist before the Horus Heresy. They are mentioned in Adeptus Titanicus and there is at least one sketch of one. However, I don't think the names "Imperator" or "Warmonger" were created until Titan Legions.
Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
thats true - but man that makes chaos is the ultimate army then - a bit of every army aside from orcs, eldar, and nids?

But - wait...  If the IG army can contain eldar if fighting chaos or orcs - can the chaos traitor allied portion include eldar if fighting another chaos army or orcs?!? :)  Maybe that would be dark eldar :)

What book talks about chaos imperators?  I'd like to read that!
Author:  Brother-Captain Parzval [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Correct. In the last pages of teh 1st ed Space Marine Rulebook, there is an "in the works"-section, where an "Emperor" titan is mentioned. "Imperator" is of course latin for Emperor.

On the question of the rules and how 2ed is a bit blurry on a lot of stuff:

I get the impression the rules back then werent really designed for tournaments as they very much are now. The rules were designed more for people gaming at home with friends. There were tournaments, sure, but as I remember (this is in Sweden of course, things probably quite different in the UK) the organizers would put restrictions particular to the event if they felt there was a problem.

I also remember the Bat reps in WD often included "house rules", that sent the signal that the rules never were meant to be read like a lawyer would read the law. Some stuff were unlcear, but it worked itself out because often there was an obvious commonsenical   interpretation (based on fluff). But then there were some real problems too...  :whistle:
Author:  silentbob27 [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Storm of Iron, most of the Horus Heresy books, I think one of the Inquisitor books also, forget which one.
Author:  deacon [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
I havent read any of the books - I heard they are good though.

Parzval - Good point - I often forget it was a much simpler time back then :p
Author:  deacon [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Alrighty - just checked the Imperators card, and it features the tech guard symbol.  Which means "officially" it can only be taken with a Tech Guard company card.  

Because chaos can only use Imperial Guard Allies - they cannot take an Imperator unless you use a house rule.
Author:  silentbob27 [ Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:09 am ]
Post subject:  Imperator and Chaos in 2nd edition
Not really, there are some other cards that are dual TL and IG, such as the IG Stormblade Company and Leman Russ Tank Company. If you are going super official, taking one of these would allow a Imperator, Warlord or Reaver battlegroup, Knight household, etc.
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