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Hybrid Rules for Epic

 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:26 am 
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Tas asked me to list some of the rule mix we use in our Hybrid system, so I thought I'd list a few off the top of my head for anyone interested. ?Too bad we couldn't link up while he is in the US, but I'm literally on the other side of the continent. ?Well I'll list them, it is by no means a complete list and we modify things as we see fit. It's a "living entity" for a rules system. ??Scenario generation, Battle Force levels - AT1/SM1. Over-the-top - SM1. ?? Organizational Templates - SM1/2. ? Unit Activation - DS. ?Order counters AT1/SM1/2. ? Off Board Support/ Indirect Fire - SM1. ? ? ?Leader Loss - SM1/2/S&T's-"Tank". ? ? ? ?General Leader rules - SM1/ some old rules from Citadel Journals. ? Special Characters - SM2/ Citadel Journals/E40K. ? ? ? ? ? ? Mounting/dismounting - SM1. ?Road movement bonus - E40K/AH. ? ? Towing Guns - Codex Titanicus. ?Terrain - SM1/2/E40K. ?Heroic Actions - SM1. ?Mines/obstacles - SM1/2/E40K. ? ?Combat/movement modifiers - SM1. ? Pop-up/skimmers - SM2. ? ? ? ? ? Snap-fire - SM1/AH. ?Close Combat - SM1/2. ? Combat Results currently E40K, strongly looking at E-A. ?Burst Markers - E40K/E-A. ? Airstikes - SM1 Off Board/E40K. ? Aircraft Rearm & Refit - E40K/E-A. ??Flak/AAA - SM1/2/E-A. ? Air-to-Air - dropped it - N/A ! ? Obviously to make it work, we have to modify & meld some of these rules. ? And again we are still working on some of this stuff ... ? :;):

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:42 am 
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Tas also asked about Kitty, well that operation was scrapped this weekend when we became decisively engaged at an intermediate objective and could not break contact.  We closed our local Brew Haus - 'nuff said ... :D

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 6:23 am 
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Thanks L4, there are a few rules in there I'd quite forgotten about (ie towing guns) and some I'm unfamiliar with (like from Over The top).  Suprised you dropped Air2Air though.  There some nice abstracted die rolling systems for that if you want to simulate air superiority etc

I'll look forward to seeing it written up in due course :;):

Oh and dont worry, Kitty will wait for you.  Dont dont expect her to sit at home and wait for you in the meantime :D

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:00 pm 
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Hi!

Thanks for posting the summary Legion4, I have been curious for some time. You can an interesting mix there, it really reminds me of the process I went through (and still going through) with Heresy II since you mixed in there a lot of things I wanted to simulate as well.

Tas, "over the top" as I recall from SM1 were rules for purchasing beyond the agreed amount of points and the possible penalties it may involve. Its actually quite cool and eliminates the bickering involved in "getting a little more", since you can do it but at a price. No doubt Legion4 will give you the specifics.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:48 pm 
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Yes, Primarch is right, "Over-the-top" is in the SM1 rules, page 47. If you have some extra points left over, we'd usually pick a Haywire Missile or something cheap point-wise, even a Medic or small detachment, etc. , roll on the chart and see if you get the extra points to purchase it. It works for a lot of reasons :;): ! ? And like you said Primarch, you go through what works and mesh them together and go from there. ?The Air2Air rules, Tas, well E40K & E-A have some workable ideas, but based on games like S&T's "Tank" (I updated that, it was not AH), we felt we wanted to keep this as "air support for ground troops" game. ?If we were going to do Air2Air, we'd want to do something like AH's "Richtofen's War" (great game !) and that would be a real paradigm shift. So it just seemed like more detail then what we were looking for. ?We basically use the SM1 Off Board rules for Airstrikes, with the added AAA rules (E40K/E-A). ?Once you call in the strike, survive Flak, place the aircraft base next to the Target, place the Big Burst Template in contact with the flying base on the Target and go from there. ?We're still working out the Flak rules, but you get the idea. ?So like I said we're working on a lot of things to make the game better and more fun for us. ? And, well Kitty is just going to have to wait, but I'm sure she was not waiting on me !!!:laugh:

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 5:51 pm 
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Well I'll list them, it is by no means a complete list and we modify things as we see fit. It's a "living entity" for a rules system. ?

- Aircraft Rearm & Refit - E40K/E-A.  
- Airstikes - SM1 Off Board/E40K.  
- Air-to-Air - dropped it - N/A !  
- Burst Markers - E40K/E-A.  
- Close Combat - SM1/2.  
- Combat/movement modifiers - SM1.  
- Combat Results currently E40K, strongly looking at E-A.  
- Flak/AAA - SM1/2/E-A.  
- General Leader rules - SM1/ some old rules from Citadel Journals.  
- Heroic Actions - SM1.  
- Leader Loss - SM1/2/S&T's-"Tank".  
- Mines/obstacles - SM1/2/E40K.    
- Mounting/dismounting - SM1.  
- Over-the-top - SM1. ? ?
- Organizational Templates - SM1/2. ?
- Order counters AT1/SM1/2. ?
- Off Board Support/ Indirect Fire - SM1. ?
- Pop-up/skimmers - SM2.          
- Road movement bonus - E40K/AH.    
- Scenario generation, Battle Force levels - AT1/SM1.  ?
- Snap-fire - SM1/AH.  
- Special Characters - SM2/ Citadel Journals/E40K. ? ? ? ? ? ?
- Terrain - SM1/2/E40K.  
- Towing Guns - Codex Titanicus. ?
- Unit Activation - DS.  

Obviously to make it work, we have to modify & meld some of these rules. And again we are still working on some of this stuff ...


I reformatted Legion-4's E-mail to make it easier to read.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.




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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 7:08 pm 
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I've never seen the SM1/2 Organisational cards, are they any good?

Cheers

Chris

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 11:11 pm 
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Thnaks guys- nver heard of or used over the top, but it sounds quite cool, and could be quite a suprise to one's opponent.  I'll have to delve into the archives...

L4- I'm with you on the A2A, AH's "Richtofen's War"  was a fantastic game and once you've done that everything else seems unsatisfying.  However, I really liked the integration of aircraft in Adv Squad Leader so we went that way for awhile.  Maybe it was because I loved running Stukas in on tank busting missions :;):

Isn't it geat how the same classic boardgames keep popping up, even though they are mnay years out of print...  Good gaming and game mechanics never out out of fashion

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 11:48 pm 
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Hi!

Legion4, air-to-air rules have been a continual problem in netepic. One of the reasons to returning to the more simpler SM/TL era rules was that the newer, more complex air rules became a game unto themselves, thats to far in that direction for what we wanted. The problem with total abstraction was the complaint that if it is adstracted why paint and collect miniatures for them? Valid concern. That is why we continue to want air-to-air rules that need minis to represent them. Its hard and sometimes silly, but thats what people want on our list.

Chris, the "army cards" and organizational charts from SM1 are STILL the easiest method by far of army construction. To construct an army of 6000 points (a fairly large game by SM2 standards) you could do it in about ten minutes or less. The cards had a graphic representation of the units that actually compose the card, with points value, morale, break point and other special rules printed right on the card. It is prehaps one of the best visual/gaming aids made for epic.

Home made copies are available for download at the epicentre, wait for the site to "be back" once netepic is done with his fixes and check them out.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 1:57 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 13 2003 May,08:48)
One of the reasons to returning to the more simpler SM/TL era rules was that the newer, more complex air rules became a game unto themselves, thats to far in that direction for what we wanted. The problem with total abstraction was the complaint that if it is adstracted why paint and collect miniatures for them?

You've hit the nail on the head, thats exactly the problem.  I want to SEE my fighter bombers strafing enemy positions, or my fighters making a kill, but dont wnat to invest 10 minutes doing it before getting back to the land battle.

I thought the proposed "Orbital Superiority" rules by slaterman on the EA playtesters forum were a good compromise.  In short, if 2 cruisers go for a position in orbit to rain down a bombardment, they conduct an assault against eachother, loser limps away, winner stays and commences firing.

This could easily be adapted for A2A to simulate whose fighters are getting over the battlefield, interdicting bombers etc. You can then bring your nicely painted strikersover the battlefield and let the flak rip!

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 2:16 am 
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Hi!

It was and still subject to great debate on the netepic list. Its relatively easy to come up with abstract flier rules, but people have consistently put them down due to lack of exposure of "my nice painted figs".

Recently we settled for letting bomber types strafe on advance orders and engage in dogfights on charge orders. We restricted flier movement to straight lines with unlimited turns at the beginning and end of movement. AA guns can target as the unit moves. Only infantry can fire back when targetted (vehicles cant due to low arc of weapons) at a penalty so as to keep AA guns supreme in this function. Since fliers are never pinned (not even by other fliers) the only way to stop a strafe run in the advance phase is by eliminating them in dogfights prior to firing. Its not as rich and detailed as it used to be, but it accomplishes the basic functions or fliers in battle.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 4:58 am 
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Wow, you guys were busy, while I was at work :D !!! ?Thanks Max, the reformating was a good idea. ? Chris as Primarch said, the SM1 Templates and SM2 Cards are very good. We still use the SM1 TO&Es for most of our armies, and modified SM2 for Traitor SMs and Eldar as well as others. ?The SM1 charts looks very much like a real military TO&E and fun to design (based on the rules) and SM2 cards are very easy to use and have a military feel to them. Check them out. ?And like we all said, limiting Airstikes and Flak to the rules, makes things easier and helps the game flow. ?As in AH's ASL, aircraft can still do "gun runs" on targets and adds to the realism and "fun" of the game. ?And after you played classics, as Tas said, like Richtofen's War or SL/ASL, it's a wonder if G/W's Rulez Boyz, ever played them ? ??? ? And we always felt that the SM1 Off Board Rules could easily be orbiting spacecraft firing at ground targets. ? Flak should be like ?Snap-Fire - a shot at a passing target. ?Jervis wanted to appease the guys who want to see their "bright shiny airplanes"?stay on the board, as Primarch said. ?Airstrikes should should be on, drop ordinance, and off. ?And somewhere along the flight path get shot at by AAA. And we thought about having the target get a shot (like Jervis, mentioned in an issue of Epic Mag). ?Most vehicles have an MG mounted on top just for this reason. It would be a long shot and Jervis put a rule in E-A, about aircraft taking fire and aborting the mission. ?But this is still a work in progress, for us. ?Once an aircraft exits the board, it Rearms & Refits as in E40K/E-A. ?And you have to call it in again ... ?That's the direction we're going with Airstrikes & Flak ... :)

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 11:46 am 
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Lemme guess your modified SM orgs are very USMC/Airborne, and the IG are very 1970s WARSAW PACT?

I agree with your offboard stuff- its the effect that matters whether it be long range artiller, offshore bombardment or orbital support. ?Its the bang we are interested not the ballistics problem of delivering it.

BTW, I have been toying with doing a city campaign using the Turning Point Stalingrad mechanics ie via city sectors. ?Another reason why the old classics never die, and why wheels are round

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 4:32 pm 
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Well, let there be no doubt, Tas, in my 6 SM Regts, & 6 IG Regts, there are some very familiar looking TO&Es. My Salamaders have an Air Assault Bn, and my Space Wolves, have a whole Assault Landing Regt., to name a few ... :D ?Yes, the SM1 Off Board system is very flexible and realistic, and could be naval, OWP, Long Range FA, etc. ?I'll update you all on "integrated activation" (IA), for Airstikes, as we work it out. . I was going over the SM1/E40K/E-A rules earlier today. Plus I'll let you guys know how we do IA for Mech forces. ?The older stuff is classic and it works, AH's ASL would work for Epic and S&T's Sniper & Patrol rules would work for 40K much better than the current 40K system does. ?No reason why you couldn't use TPS, as a basis for campaign rules. ? It's all good ... :laugh:

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 Post subject: Hybrid Rules for Epic
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 2:24 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 14 2003 May,01:32)
No reason why you couldn't use TPS, as a basis for campaign rules. ? It's all good ... :laugh:

I thought it might provide a good operational level mechanic for maneouvre and putting troops together. ?The sector system works well for allocating bulk resources to combat areas. ?Based on a limited number of resources, players have to decide which sector gets the Titan support/air cover/Orbital bombardment. ?It WILL lead to some unbalanced games, but then thats the fun of adding the operational level into it

}:)

While this system could be used for any terrain, it would be particularly good for a cityfight type scenario (like a Hive City), with different sectors having different major features (Imperial shrines, spaceport, Administratum HQ, Manufactorium etc etc)

There will need to be some additional rules added for bombardment of sectors, experience (covered in another thread), supply (only very basic only) reinforcements, army morale to name a few, but all the combat will be done on the table.

Anyhow, that was the thought behind it. ?Looking forward to your IA update L4. ?TAnd those TO&Es sound good- they are there because they work after all...

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