Tactical Command
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The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=9211		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Haarken [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
I've been doing so investigating and a little bit of thinking lately about the space marines. I read somewhere, i think it was Captain Sterns website that a group of space marines achieved a 53:1 kill ratio... that means 1000 troops (your space marine chapter) could kill 53,000 before it was wiped out... wow quite a lot or is it? For a start the imperial guard equals probably hundreds of billions (I seem to recall the notion of at least one billion troops on a single front), the highest number of chapters that I have read is a chapter designated 888 which would mean that there were around 888,000 marines. IF all these marines are together at once on a single battlefront then they could with the rather high kill ratio of 53:1 kill 47,064,000... thats forty seven million... even taking the number of 2000 chapters ( a figure I read somewhere else) they could only kill 106,000,000 thats... one hundred million...

Now think about how long it takes for a space marine to be trained and how long it takes for say a tyranid or an ork to be raised to fighting age... Space marine chapters cant afford to lose a single man as it takes so long to replace him whilst the tyranids, orks and lets say imperial guard can afford to absorb that figure of 53:1.

Often you hear of a single company being detached from a chapter to go and guard a planet... 100 men to guard a planet. If we just take our moon which has a surface area of 152 million square kilometers that is still one man to every 1,520,000 square kilometers... thats the equivalent of say 7 men guarding the entireity of the United States. if an entire chapter was guarding a planet then that is still only 70 men and each man would have 152000 km's to guard... (Imagine one soldier in the state of New York) even if we take a chapter guarding the united states each man would have over 9000 square km's to cover. If all 888000 men were in the U.S they would have... 10 sq km's each to cover... even allowing for 2000 chapters instead of 888 the marines would each have 4 sq km to cover...

Ok the point... Space Marines are the most useless and overrated weapon... sure 53:1 sounds good but if a squad of ten men has to patrol 90,000 square kilometers (and thats only if we say that they are guarding the U.S) what possibe chance do they have of bringing that fire superiority to bear?
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Marines are an elite fighting force which means that they don't just line them up in front of the enemy and start shooting away. They are used in surgical strikes against key targets and thus not designed to simply kill enemies but to disrupt his lines of communications and command structure.
Also the Marines most often operate in conjunction with the Adeptus Titanicus , the Navy and the Imperial guard which certianly evens out the numbers considerably.

Guarding a planet doesn't necessarily mean that one man is standing in the middle of a. 152000 km square. They would simply need to hold a few key areas with a concentrated force which only had to hold that position until reinforcements can arrive.

Still I agree that the Adeptus Astrates is a ridiculously small force which couldn't possible make a difference if we look at the 40k universe realistically. However this IS the 40k universe -it isn't supposed to be realistic! :) :;):

Cheers! :)
Author:  stormseer [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Yeah, good point- there is a thread on a similar subject on the SG forums that is very interesting reading (was it Dafrcas?).
....I agree that chapters should have far more men, but the way they are portrayed in the fluff is not really as a patrolling garrison force- rather; small detachments or larger group are used for surgical strikes to take out key objectives- there is very little on marines guarding whole countries...

[edit] I started on this before WMN's post, ..he puts it a lot better than me!  :;):

[edit 2] CorwinB posted the other thread.... http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic....hpage=1
Well worth a read imo...
Author:  primarch [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Hi!

I have never subscribed to the 1 million space marine mantra placed forth by the background. I collect SM according to the Heresy level deployments which are more realistic and are in the millions.

Primarch
Author:  vanvlak [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Well, that's what Titans and Ordinati are for, I guess...
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Quote (stormseer @ 09 2004 Nov.,09:08)
Yeah, good point- there is a thread on a similar subject on the SG forums that is very interesting reading (was it Dafrcas?).

Not mine, but it was fun reading it.  :)

dafrca
Author:  dafrca [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Quote (primarch @ 09 2004 Nov.,09:34)
Hi!

I have never subscribed to the 1 million space marine mantra placed forth by the background. I collect SM according to the Heresy level deployments which are more realistic and are in the millions.

Primarch

I am with you. I have always thought that the background was too unrealistic when it came to the Marines. I have always thought there was either Many more Chapters then they seem to talk about or they are much larger then they seem to indicate.

dafrca
Author:  primarch [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Hi!

There are two approaches, as you suggest, either the same amount of chapters with MORE marines in each of them...

OR

.... many more chapters of 1000 marines each.

I have gone the second route, keeping the 10 company structure, but beleive the actual "count" of chapters are endless.

Either way is better than a fixed 1 million space marine force. Its just not possible for such a small force to make an impact in such a large galaxy. Attrition alone would have wiped them out eons ago.

Primarch
Author:  Haarken [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:57 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
I think I am going the first way suggested... I want my "Chapter" to be a "Legion"... fluffwise that is...

10,000 marines per chapter
888 chapters

8,880,000 marines

Still not enough but getting better  :oo
Author:  iblisdrax [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
You all stop trying to apply logic to GW's stuff.... you will drive yourself insane!  Cuz the stuff was designed by Feral Orks, you know.... :p

my 2cents,

iblisdrax
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Another way to look at the fluff is to view it as Imperial lore. When they mention exactly 1000 chapters 1000 men strong it may just refer to the fact that the Marines are a very disciplined and highly organized force. (I just remembered an old song which goes something like "General Napoleon and his 10.000 men..." It's about the russian campaign which was more that 200.000 men strong IIRC.)
The point is that thought the tactical doctrines say 1000 men strong chapters they're really much bigger when adding stuff like vehicle crews, Space Ship crew various support stuff etc. and there certainly don't have to be only 10000 chapters. It's simply a way of describing tight organization in lay mans terms.

But again -It's a Fictional universe so logic really don't apply

Cheers!:) :;):
Author:  primarch [ Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:20 am ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Hi!

True Iblisdrax, logic and GW fluff dont mix.

Dafca, I'm warming up to you slant on the chapters....

...mainly because it lets me make larger armies.... :;):

Primarch
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Quote (iblisdrax @ 09 2004 Nov.,13:07)
You all stop trying to apply logic to GW's stuff.... you will drive yourself insane! ?Cuz the stuff was designed by Feral Orks, you know.... :p

Orks like Pete Haines?  :;):

dafrca
Author:  dafrca [ Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:52 am ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Quote (primarch @ 09 2004 Nov.,18:20)
Dafca, I'm warming up to you slant on the chapters....

...mainly because it lets me make larger armies.... :;):

Yes Master, larger armies is a good thing.  :cool:

dafrca
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:00 am ]
Post subject:  The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...
Haarken, if you read the tread about military organizations, we had a month or two back, you may remember about how military units work. You may know this already ! :;): ?However, G/W fluff is fickle at best, and many times illogical and if they know anything about military units it's by accident it appears many times. ? An SM Chapter (we call them Rgts ! Chapters are not military organizations !) ?A Rgt is generally 1100-3200 men. ?IG also are organized in Rgts. SMs are elite troops, equal to Rangers, Paras, Marines, etc. there are fewer of these units because of their special training, equipment, etc. ?The IG are standard Gropos, Grunts ... the heart and soul of any army. Example, the US Army had about 106 Divisions in WWII. ?Only 5 of those were Airborne, and there were only 6 Ranger Bns. ?And the USMC consisted of only 6 Divisions. So that may put it in perspective, for you. ?And, by the way "a Roman Legion" was only about 4800-5000 men. ?So that is to about a Bde(+). ?In my SM and IG Rgts, it appears (based on G/W fluff !?) that many times these Rgts are tasked organized with occasional elements from the Titan Legions.  And a unit does not normally physically occupy an entire objective/sector.  They occupy key and decisive pieces of terrain and cover many areas by fire. :;):
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