Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

Enemies of the Eldar

 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:17 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Southampton - UK
Hi all,

I've now got three opponents to fight against in 40k, the question is what can I expect from their armies?  Know your enemies is a key factor in war is it not!

These are the armies I'm likely to face

- Tau army

- 2 x Marine armies, one ultramarine, one imperial fists.

I'm suspecting that Marines will be able to deal with CC and Ranged combat with equal ease.  (Marines seem equal to Eldar Scorpions on CC terms?!)

Tau seem shooty...

The new codex for Eldar is not out as yet so I'll be using the old values and stats for the army, is this fair compared to the new codex books?  

Cheers

_________________
I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:26 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Let's see here:

Tau typically come in two flavors:  Mechanized Fire Warriors, with a few tanks and suits backing them up; or the 'Crisis Horde' with lots of Crisis suits backed up with a few FW.

The Modus Operandi for Mech Tau is to advance inside the Devilfish to about 12" away from the enemy, and then the FW jump out and rapid-fire the stuffing out of a squad.  The DFish typically has both the SMS and burst cannon, and will add it's fire to that of the squad. Pulse and SMS are AP5, so Guardians are in deep trouble.  The counter to this is to kill the transports ASAP.  With the loss of their transports, Mech Tau are less frightening, but still put out a _large_ volume of fire, even at long range, and the first time you are within 12" of the Tau gunline, you will become very afraid for the continued existence of your army.  Once you get into CC, however, it sucks to be Tau.  The Tau have almost no CC capabilities to speak of.

The Crisis Horde is a very Eldar-like army.  Very fluid in it's responses, hard to kill, and very well armed.  It also folds quickly once it starts taking losses.  Treat the Crisis Horde like a bunch of Marines (bring Reapers and Starcannon).  Here, the basic Fire Warrior is a sideshow to the Crisis suits, but still can't be ignored safely.  Your priority here should be his Crisis suits, not his troop (or the Transports).  Don't think that Crisis suits are easy prey in CC, either.  They're S5, T4, 3+ save, with 2 wounds each.  They can hurt things in CC, it's just not likely that they'll hit you.

Marines, assuming your chapter identification is good, are flexible.  You may see a shooty army (probably will with the IFists), you may also see a CC-oriented force (Chaplain-led assault squads are all the rage right now).  You may even see both in the same army.  Marines are excellent all-around troops.  Your Scorpions are slightly better in CC (higher I), and your Reapers have better weapons, but a marine Tactical Squad can fight in CC better than your Reapers, and outshoot your Scorps.  

A good Marine battle plan has redundant units, and is mutually supporting.  A Devastator Squad will provide heavy weapons support to 2-3 Tactical Squads, which will be backing up an Assault Squad.  The complete loss of any one squad will cause little damage to the battle plan, one of the other squads will fill in.  Well-generalled Marines can be very hard to defeat.  Every fight you enter has to be to your advantage.  Hit his assault squad with a couple Reaper squads.  Shut down his Devastator squad with Banshees or Scorps in CC.  Shoot his Tactical Squads with as many starcannons as you can bring to bear.  

Watch for his Scouts.  Infiltrating scouts with Bolt Pistol/CCW are almost the equal of Assault Marines.

The Tau got a big power-up with the new codex, and the rumors about the Eldar codex include similar power-ups.  There is not a 'no-brainer' choice in the new Codex, every piece of equipment has it's niche, as does every squadtype.  Even with that said, Craftworld Eldar vs Marines or Tau is reasonably fair (although there will be some complaints about 'starcannon spam', as there are a lot of different platforms to bring starcannons to a battle, and Starcannons are probably the single most effective weapon in the game, with a good rate of fire to deal with hordes, and the AP to kill Terminators.)

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:34 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
Gee, what else could one add to that?  :cool:

Just one thing: Marines, assuming your chapter identification is good, are flexible.

Add: assuming your opponent's chapter ID is good too, and doesn't use Imperial Fists as Blood Angels etc....

_________________
Back from oblivion (again)?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:03 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Southampton - UK
Thank you Lion in the Stars, very informative as per normal.  

Couple of quick questions.

When it comes to armour penetration what happens!

An AP value of 3 ignores all armour with saves of over 3+ is that right?  So only 1+ and 2+ saves will be allowed.

If a AP4 weapon and AP6 weapon require saving against on a Marine 3+ save.  What do you need to roll?  Is it only a 3+ on both instances? Does the strength of the weapon affect the save now?  Apart from high value ones not allowing a save?

I've got a 300 pt battle this eve, just to try the rules out. (no vehicles, no HQ's)  Will be fighting a Marine army of 2 x 5 Marine Tactical Squads and 1 x 5 Scout Squad.

I'm thinking -

Dark Reapers (3) 111pts
Banshees (5) 80pts
Rangers (2x3) 114pts

Total 305

or

Guardian Defenders 5 + Hvy Weap (Shuriken Cannon) 75pts
Dark Reapers (4) 148pts
Banshee (5) 80pts

Total 303

Suggestions?

_________________
I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:23 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 7:35 am
Posts: 5455
Location: Finland

(Enderel @ Aug. 25 2006,08:03)
QUOTE
Thank you Lion in the Stars, very informative as per normal.  

Couple of quick questions.

When it comes to armour penetration what happens!

An AP value of 3 ignores all armour with saves of over 3+ is that right?  So only 1+ and 2+ saves will be allowed.

Correct.


If a AP4 weapon and AP6 weapon require saving against on a Marine 3+ save.  What do you need to roll?  Is it only a 3+ on both instances? Does the strength of the weapon affect the save now?  Apart from high value ones not allowing a save?


3+ in both instances as there are no save modifiers anymore, barring some weapon specific rules like Ork Choppa and (IIRC) Khornate chain axe which only allow 4+ save at most. But unless the weapon rules specifically state otherwise it's all or nothing these days. Strength does not modify save at all no matter how high it is.

Of course, if the save is failed and the stength is twice the target's toughness it will be killed regardless of wounds.

_________________
I don't know and I let who care. -J.S.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:31 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Southampton - UK
Thanks Mojarn Piett.  Seems slightly odd, but I think that is my Epic bias coming to the fore...  :D

We'll have to see how we get on.  I suspect that we'll be fleeing towards the old rules soon enough for 40k!

_________________
I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606

(Lion in the Stars @ Aug. 25 2006,06:26)
QUOTE
The Tau have almost no CC capabilities to speak of.

Not really so clear-cut. Their firewarriors are actually better in  CC generally than say IG trooppers(that WS2 isn't going to come into play that often but they have that handy 4+ save). I have had khorne berserkers stop dead in tracks in assault due to them having that infernable save.

Also crisis suits(as you pointed out) aren't that easily ignored in CC and once more WS2 comes rarely into play(they hit most of stuff on 4+, which is often what I have had my chaos marines hit with anyway).

Are they CC monsters? No. But if you start treating them like they have no CC abilities you can get stopped easily. I have had CC oriented marines have their assault stopped by wave of IG troopers charging in. Firewarriors are even better warriors than IG trooppers...

_________________
www.tneva.net


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:13 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Southampton - UK
I'll be up against the Tau army box set initially.  So could have Kroot to fight against.  They are good in CC aren't they?

_________________
I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:01 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606

(Enderel @ Aug. 25 2006,14:13)
QUOTE
I'll be up against the Tau army box set initially.  So could have Kroot to fight against.  They are good in CC aren't they?

Good at hitting, poor at taking hits. If you can hit them first(ie have higher I) hard they will be like walk in the park. In those situations even tau FIREWARRIORS outclass them in CC...

_________________
www.tneva.net


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
Kroot need to be deployed in cover, where they'll usually strike first, (or simultaneously when opponents have Frag grenades).  Personally, I don't like Kroot, and didn't like Vespids, because they tend to be sacrificial troops.  I'll use sacrificial pawns if I'm playing Guard, but not Tau.  Pointless, preventable deaths of allied troops do not further the Greater Good.  Vespids need careful use to avoid being a one-shot deal, and I have yet to see any way of using Kroot that's not as a 'Speed-bump' unit.

That seems to be the key to fighting Tau.  Hit them first, because they tend to be eggshells armed with sledgehammers.  The 4+ save on Fire Warriors can help against massed small-arms fire, but most heavy weapons (Shuricannon, Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers) will just eat them alive.  At least initially, you won't see the Crisis Horde (battlesuits are ludicrously expensive $$-wise), but beware of the Mechanized list.  The first time your opponent sees what the Devilfish w/SMS can do, he'll never field a bare one again.

Watch out for the Stealth Suits.  Due to their Stealth armor, odds are that your Reapers won't be able to see them until the Stealth suits open fire the first time.  Stealth suits carry an insane amount of firepower (a full squad can gun down a Carnifex or a Wraithlord in one turn with some good rolls), and aren't bad in CC (2 S4 Attacks each, base, is not to be mocked, even though their WS and I suck).  Stealth suits try to shoot you until you have to assault them, where they're at an advantage (they count as always being in cover, so usually strike first).

Personally, I'd take the 305-point list with the Reapers.  Reaper Launchers just, well, reap any infantry like wheat, especially expensive 3+ armor save types, which are the strength of a Tau list (IMO).

Your Marine opponent will probably use his Scouts as improv Assault Marines (BP/CCW), with one Tactical Squad with a Heavy Weapon, one with a Special weapon (probably flamer to start with).  Pick on his heavy-weapon armed unit(s) first, and try to pin his Scouts.  Save the Banshees for a counter-assault force, where the idea is to wait for him to close, and then have the Banshees jump his attacking troops.  (Banshees are better because they get more kills against Marines than Scorps do.)  It's a bit of a defensive play-style (and not the way I like to play) but it works pretty well.  As your battles increase in size, you'll find that you can play more aggressively with the larger forces.

I only played a couple games under 2nd edition, but I don't have very fond memories of it, what with hour-long turns for each side.  4th edition plays much faster, with larger model counts.  (Roughly twice the model count for the same points, although vehicles are close to the same points as in 2nd, and we typically play a 6-turn tournament game in 2 hours.)  YMMV

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:39 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:52 am
Posts: 10348
Location: Malta
One comment on Kroot - if Kroot hounds are added to the Kroot, they get much better in combat.

_________________
Back from oblivion (again)?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
This is true, but hounds are not part of the Battleforce.  I may borrow one of the guy's Kroot squads, but they still seem to be 'Speedbump' units.  Expendable, and just there to keep the bad guys away from your precious Fire Warriors.  Not what I want in a unit.

However, they become very nasty in a cityfight, especially with a full complement of 'hounds and 'oxriders.  Use the Sewer Rats strategem, allowing you to enter play from Reserves from a 'Sewer entrance' marker.  That's just rude having a few S6 krootoxen rampaging through your backfield.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1134
Location: Southampton - UK
I've just finished my first battle and I'm happy to report a bloody victory for the Eldar.

I took the folowing army -

Dark Reapers (3) 111pts
Banshees (5) 80pts
Rangers (2x3) 114pts

The Marine player managed to get enough points together for the following -

2 x Tactical Marine Squads (6 man) one with missile launcher one with flamer.
1 x Scout squad (5 man) all with sniper rifles, apart from one with a missile launcher.

Set up on a no terrain battlefield! ?Last time I let him set up terrain... He got turn 1 and ?I lost my rangers in the first turn near enough to sniper fire and missiles. ?Then l failed LD and they ran away completely off the table.

I managed to pull it around with the Reapers on one flank, they killed most of the enemy forces. ?Definately need more of these.

Banshee's killed two tactical marines in CC then ran away.

End of battle three reapers and 1 banshee remained on board.

Marines seem under priced compared to Eldar?  Is the codex eldar that far out...





_________________
I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606

(Enderel @ Aug. 25 2006,19:47)
QUOTE
Marines seem under priced compared to Eldar?

Seems more than a "bit" ironic from ELDAR player. ELDAR that are THE marine killing army out there  :laugh:

_________________
www.tneva.net


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Enemies of the Eldar
PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:38 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 11:01 pm
Posts: 1455
No terrain?  You should have at least 25% of the table covered with terrain in 4th edition.  More terrain is better, IMO.

An open shooting ground is not a good arena for any army.

_________________
"For the Lion and the Emperor!"


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net