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Warhammer point system
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Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Has anybody ever made any sense about Warhammer point system. Example:
Empire spearman costs 6 points.
Dark Elf warrior has the same equipment and has +1 M, WS, BS, Ld and +2 I. It costs a whopping 7pts.

What should I make of this? First come, worst served?  ???  :/
Author:  netepic [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Codex Escalation - a beautiful thang, finally my Dwarves will be powerful again, they will have the latest codex.

A classic example was my last game with my empire vs Brettonians. Turn one, Empire army evapourates. Turn Two through Five, one single regiment of Ogre mercenaries systematically destroys the enemy army.
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
I don't know the specifics of the army lists in question here but:  there is an argument that units with the same stat line may be pointed differently in different armies due to availablity and how it fits in with the rest of the list.  If DE warriors were more useful than Empire spearmen in the context of the wider army choices then that could justify the point hike.

List creep is altogether more likely though. :)

Orde
Author:  Markconz [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 02 Nov. 2005 (08:46))
Has anybody ever made any sense about Warhammer point system. Example:
Empire spearman costs 6 points.
Dark Elf warrior has the same equipment and has +1 M, WS, BS, Ld and +2 I. It costs a whopping 7pts.

What should I make of this? First come, worst served? ???? ?:/

As someone who is somewhat familiar with the current WFB system, I'll try to explain to explain some of the reasoning behind the points differences.

Spearmen are more defensive than offensive, plus lots of their combat value comes from static (ranks, outnumbering, standard) ?combat resolution rather than actual killing ability.

What this means is that M is not as important to spearmen as for other infantry (if they charge they don't get rear rank attack, plus they are often left sitting in a defensive position defending artillery rather than advancing anyway). WS _might_ make a 16% difference to 'to hit' against _some_ opposition. BS means nothing to troops without bows. Ld is worth something, but will often be replaced by heroes or generals leadership for these spear blocks. ?I counts only after the first round.

In other words lots of stat differences but how much importance do these actually have in terms of combat power?

Also remember that even a 1 point difference per spearmen makes a large difference when you buying full units which l perform essentially the same function as each other (with a slight advantage to the elves - but not enough to be a sure thing).

20 Empire spear = 120. plus 18 for command.
20 Elf spear = 140. plus 21 for command.

In other words they have the points about right... ?:;):
Author:  Markconz [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (colonel_sponsz @ 02 Nov. 2005 (10:20))
I don't know the specifics of the army lists in question here but: ?there is an argument that units with the same stat line may be pointed differently in different armies due to availablity and how it fits in with the rest of the list. ?If DE warriors were more useful than Empire spearmen in the context of the wider army choices then that could justify the point hike.

List creep is altogether more likely though. :)

Orde

List creep is not as bad these days as people think I beleive. For instance the recent 'Ogre Kingdoms' are definitely not an overpowered army.

The most broken army list at the moment is probably skaven and that was released a while ago. Hopefully they will fix it up and reduce the power of the Skyre soon.
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system

20 Empire spear = 120. plus 18 for command.
20 Elf spear = 140. plus 21 for command.


Plus 50 points for the hero (assuming I won't give him any armor & stuff) to get the Leadership to 8. Another thing is whether I want to put a hero to a spearman unit.  :/


In other words they have the points about right...  :;):


I think I'd still rather pay 1 point more per figure to get 25% more speed and an additional 1 in 6 chance to pass a leadership test and a to-hit roll.  :devil:   :alien:
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 02 Nov. 2005 (09:46))
Has anybody ever made any sense about Warhammer point system. Example:
Empire spearman costs 6 points.
Dark Elf warrior has the same equipment and has +1 M, WS, BS, Ld and +2 I. It costs a whopping 7pts.

What should I make of this? First come, worst served? ???? ?:/

At my local gaming club there are often disparaging comments about the revisions to WFB Dark Elf army list. Apparently a vocal minority of Dark Elf players on the official GW Forum complained about the previous Dark Elf army list- poor unit choices, overcosts units etc.

We refer locally to this forum as Drucchi.whine. If you make a comparison between High Elf and Dark Elf army lists you will see that they had very similar army selctions (with possible exception of Silver Helms). If you look at the abilities and points costs between the High Elf and Dark Elf core infantry, elite infantry, skirmish cavalry, elite cavalry & bolt throwers you will see very similar units with comparable points values.

Thus rather than working out how to alter their armiy selection or tactics the Drak Elf players whined until GW gave them a new Army List. They made changes such as reducing the points cost of Dark Elf spearman to only 7 points.

Oh well....
:(
Cheers

James
Author:  wargame_insomniac [ Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (Markconz @ 02 Nov. 2005 (11:24))
List creep is altogether more likely though. :)

Orde[/quote]
List creep is not as bad these days as people think I beleive. For instance the recent 'Ogre Kingdoms' are definitely not an overpowered army.

At my local gaming club most people thought that Ogre Kingdoms was fairly balanced. We have 1 player who plays Ogres. He started off losing his first half dozen games on the trot. Then he finally glued together some Gnoblars and his fortunes turned around....
Since then I think he has won 10-11 games out of the last dozen. He is using couple units of both Ogre bulls and Gnoblars, 2-3 small units of Leadbelchers, 1 unit of Ironguts and small unit Gnoblar Trappers. Its almost like the Ogre Kingdoms army list rewards a balanced force selection! :D
Cheers

James
Author:  Shinnentai [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Don't forget that the empire spearmen also have access to the potentially devastating detachments rules.
Author:  mageboltrat [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 02 Nov. 2005 (14:50))
At my local gaming club there are often disparaging comments about the revisions to WFB Dark Elf army list. Apparently a vocal minority of Dark Elf players on the official GW Forum complained about the previous Dark Elf army list- poor unit choices, overcosts units etc.

There were a few problems with the Dark Elf list..

1) they were not competitive at tornaments.

You never saw Dark Elf armies coming high up in tornaments. Also over time they had almost disapeared from the bigger tornaments. This was not true of High Elfs. Therefore it could be assumed that a competative army was hard to make.

2) Certain units were not worth taking..

Spearmen are the most noticeable of these. Why would anyone take them when you could take the much better and strategically sensable corsairs (good in defence, good in attack). If a unit is never being used there is something wrong with that unit or the army list. Either the unit is overpointed, or the army is overpowered.

Also when comparing High Elves with Dark Elves you have to remember that HE can fight in 3 ranks.
Author:  Markconz [ Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 02 Nov. 2005 (11:25))

20 Empire spear = 120. plus 18 for command.
20 Elf spear = 140. plus 21 for command.


Plus 50 points for the hero (assuming I won't give him any armor & stuff) to get the Leadership to 8. Another thing is whether I want to put a hero to a spearman unit. ?:/


In other words they have the points about right... ?:;):


I think I'd still rather pay 1 point more per figure to get 25% more speed and an additional 1 in 6 chance to pass a leadership test and a to-hit roll. ?:devil: ? :alien:
If the hero is the general then he just has to be within 12" and he can confer LD to several spearmen units.

Also, as was pointed out the empire get the detachment rules also.
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Re: general. Yes, I know. But the point is the DE player doesn't _have_ to have his general baby sit the spearmen.

Re: detachment rules: How many people actually use them? I am far from an expert but in the small amount of games/batreps I've seen nobody has ever used the Empire detachment rules so far.

I have also heard the "context explanation" many times but I don't buy it. If the idea of a point system is to give units having similar capabilities the same point values then the "context explanation" has the rug pulled from under it as it basically means each army has its own point system.

As for the combat effectiveness, Empire swordsmen lose fight in 2 ranks and spear but gain a shield. They also gain +1WS. They cost 7 points, the same as DE spearmen. Taking ans equal amount of both, which side is more likely to win combat?

EDIT: Oh well, I guess I got my answer so there's not much point in debating the (lack of) merits of GW's point system.

What I wanted to say by the above is that, IMO, why have a point system if it is not consistent? Of course, no point system can ever be foolproof but being consistent helps a lot.  :;):
Author:  Markconz [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:43 am ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Quote (Mojarn Piett @ 04 Nov. 2005 (06:12))
Re: general. Yes, I know. But the point is the DE player doesn't _have_ to have his general baby sit the spearmen.

Re: detachment rules: How many people actually use them? I am far from an expert but in the small amount of games/batreps I've seen nobody has ever used the Empire detachment rules so far.

I have also heard the "context explanation" many times but I don't buy it. If the idea of a point system is to give units having similar capabilities the same point values then the "context explanation" has the rug pulled from under it as it basically means each army has its own point system.

As for the combat effectiveness, Empire swordsmen lose fight in 2 ranks and spear but gain a shield. They also gain +1WS. They cost 7 points, the same as DE spearmen. Taking ans equal amount of both, which side is more likely to win combat?

EDIT: Oh well, I guess I got my answer so there's not much point in debating the (lack of) merits of GW's point system.

What I wanted to say by the above is that, IMO, why have a point system if it is not consistent? Of course, no point system can ever be foolproof but being consistent helps a lot. ?:;):

Actually you might be surprised - a Dark elf Lord and battle standard bearer may well be used to inspire the rank and file. Just such a tactic was used by a dark elf army in a recent tournament here.

RE: Detachment rules - they are very powerful and useful - every empire army I have fought has used them, and I dislike them very much. Ability to flank charge when not in flank arc is a killer.

Yes you are right armies have context specific points systems. A good idea too   :p  A balanced points system has to account for how a unit interacts with other units in its army.

Re: Empire swordsmen. They have +1 WS and +1 I over spearmen. Crucially they also get the hand weapon and shield combo (+1 armour save). The answer to your question about which is more likely to win a combat (Empire Swordsmen or DE Spearmen) depends on who has flanks, numbers and luck!  The swordsmen are tougher, the spearmen more attacks.

Ok, forgive me for saying so Mojarn, but you seem very determined to criticise the points values, but obviously without an understanding of the WFB list and mechanics... Have you actually played WFB 7th, or are you just trying to make sense of apparantly discrepant points values by looking at army lists and second hand battle reports?

Admittedly some points values and things are screwy in WFB (eg Skaven ratling guns), but not the things you are talking about...

I know you are still bitter that the Squats were wiped out by tyranids (emperor be praised the adeptus astartes were saved the time and effort), but  please at least try pick on actual weaknesses of GW  :devil:  :p
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system

Ok, forgive me for saying so Mojarn, but you seem very determined to criticise the points values, but obviously without an understanding of the WFB list and mechanics... Have you actually played WFB 7th, or are you just trying to make sense of apparantly discrepant points values by looking at army lists and second hand battle reports?


Yes and no. No, I have not played it in the proper sense of the word. But. I have enough experience (20 years or so) in studying and distmantling wargames rules I have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics themselves.


Yes you are right armies have context specific points systems. A good idea too   :p  A balanced points system has to account for how a unit interacts with other units in its army.


In this I disagree. It is VERY difficult to try and make a good point system which fairly rates abilities and the different combos of ability values. It is impossible to take into the equation the combinations of units. To tread that path is to walk a really slippery slope. If there is a X point unit it should be about equal in ability to any other X point unit regardless of army.


Re: Empire swordsmen. They have +1 WS and +1 I over spearmen.


Uh-huh. So they have only 1,5 of the 5 boosts a DE spearman has but still they cost the same. Of course, if you give Empire spearmen a shield, so do they. Without the WS and I boost. So obviously the fight in ranks is worth something.


I know you are still bitter that the Squats were wiped out by tyranids (emperor be praised the adeptus astartes were saved the time and effort),


Reply deleted for security reasons...


but  please at least try pick on actual weaknesses of GW


I am, as I consider an inconsistent point system to be a major weakness.
Author:  Lion in the Stars [ Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Warhammer point system
Amusingly enough, this is part of why blarg's fan club didn't like his titan weapons system.  GW's points system isn't consistent, and blarg was trying to make a consistent one.

I'm still not convinced that a points system should price the same capabilities differently in different lists, but I'm probably still thinking Star Fleet Battles.
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