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Space Marine Legions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=127&t=6208		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chris [ Sun Aug 10, 2003 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Hi All,

I am trying to piece together what exactly was in a Space Marine Legion, notably the Ultamarine Legion. Now in Codex:Space Marines it states that the Ultamarine Legion was broken down into 22 Chapters, so that would make the Legion around about 22,000 troops. But thats where my information stops...

I basically need any information anyone can give me about anything to do with SM Legions!!!!

Fleet assets, squad sizes, what Imperial equipment they, everything!!!

Another thing that has been bothering me is were the legions broken down into smaller fighting forces inside the legion, like the Companies in SM Chapters?

I am currently searching the web, GW books, mags and WD for info as well.

I am planning on compiling my info and submitting it to Incoming! So you will all have a chance to see it!

Many thanks for any information!

Cheers,
Chris.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Sun Aug 10, 2003 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Chris,

Do you have the Insignium Astartes?

Also, I'm pretty sure that the SMs had different organization both pre- and post-Heresy.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  Chris [ Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Before and during the Heresy were the Legions, after the Heresy Rouboute Gulliman wrote Codex Astates and the Legions were broken down into Chapters. Thats the difference between pre-heresy and post-heresy.

And Insignium Astartes only gives info on SM Chapters in 40k, not 10,000 years before when they had Legions.

Cheers,
Chris.
Author:  Tas [ Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
G'day Chris,

I also find the Marine Legions period pretty interesting and did a little bit of digging around some time ago to investigate this period.

What I found was that apart from a few fluff snippets, there wasn't much laid out. While this is a bit annoying (and typically GW-ish) it allows you total freedom to do whatever you like.

Some such snippets included (off the top of my head):

- Different Legions founded differing numbers of Chapters, depending on how many they troops they had remaining after the Heresy, and also with regard to how much they wanted to adopt the new Codex as laid out by Gulliman (sp?). I recall that the Ultras founded the most (they love the Codex- their Primarch wrote it), then the Fists.

- The Legions had varying organisations, just as Chapters do now. The Dark Angels, for example, had a large armoured force known as "Ironwing", which was formed by reducing the amount of Laind Raiders and Predators assigned to company and concentrating them into a armoured formation. The Legions commanded their own Space Fleets as well, which was discussed in the most recent BFG magazine

- There was a project on the www called Warhammer 30k which was a version of Epic dedicated totally to Epic and with Legion type organisations. Its' worth trawling around the internet and seeing if you can't locate it. Let me know if you can't, I saved the orgs somewhere on my HDD.

I'd be very interested in the results of your research and look forward to hearing more from you Chris!

Best,
Tas.
Author:  primarch [ Sun Aug 10, 2003 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Hi!

The best reference for SM legions is the old organizations given in WD for first edition Epic (It was called Space MArine 1rst Edition and was designed as an add-on to Adeptus Titanicus 1). Granted they are Heresy era organizations, but they give you how many companies of each type there were.

As for space assets, you'll need to "ad-lib" since there are only vague references. Keep in mind back then, the naval arm was subordinate to the SM legion as a means of transportation and attack. Unlike present organization which limits them.

Primarch.
Author:  Tas [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 12:25 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Quote (primarch @ 11 2003 Aug.,08:49)
As for space assets, you'll need to "ad-lib" since there are only vague references. Keep in mind back then, the naval arm was subordinate to the SM legion as a means of transportation and attack. Unlike present organization which limits them.


Absolutely it limits them, and quite intentionally too.

In the wake of the Heresy, the point was to limit the power wielded by any single Marine Commander. A point that seems to have been fairly successful given that a number of Chapters have been heretical (notably the ones in the Badab War).

Good call on the original organisations, Primarch!
Author:  Tas [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:35 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Quote (Tas @ 11 2003 Aug.,08:48)
There was a project on the www called Warhammer 30k which was a version of Epic dedicated totally to Epic and with Legion type organisations. ?Its worht trawling aorund and seeing if you cant locate it. ?let me know if you cant, I saved the orgs somewhere on my HDD.

Found it:

http://www.spellbooksoftware.com/e41k/detachments/e30k/
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Yes,

All of the fluff from SM-1 on was a bit "sketchy" about a lot of things, which is standard G/W operating procedures, as with Titan Legion organization.

With SM-1, in a W/D article, they gave you templates to organize SM units up to regimental level, those are the TO&Es we still use today.
Author:  primarch [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Hi, Legion4,

Do the old TO&E's mention drop pods and their numbers?

Or just ground troops?

Primarch.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Yes,

I'll read from the rules:

- 0-6 Drop Pod dets. per Regt., each Drop Pod det. supplies enough pods to drop 2 SM dets.
- Each Assault Pod can carry 2 stands of SMs or 5 Dreads. ?
- Drop Regts, and in SM1 the Space Wolves were designated Drop Troops, can have Support & Deathwind pods.
- 4 Support or 6 Deathwind pods per det. Cost is 500 per Drop Pod det. regardless of actual number of pods used. ?

So with the 0-6 limit I usually use:
- 1 Support,
- 1 Deathwind, and
- 4 Assault Pod dets. ?

We also modified rules so we could drop mixed Support & Deathwind pod dets.
Author:  Chris [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Quote (primarch @ 10 2003 Aug.,23:49)
The best reference for SM legions is the old organizations given in WD for first edition Epic (It was called Space Marine 1rst Edition and was designed as an add-on to Adeptus Titanicus 1). Granted they are Heresy era organizations, but they give you how many companies of each type there were.


Ok, I don't have acess to that, so could someone who has them please post them, or just as a re-cap.

I am now thinking along the lines of having regiments in the Legion, as the E-30k says (Thanks Taz, very helpful), and having enough "regiments" for up to 22,000 troops.

- I am toying with the idea of calling them grand companies (any thoughts?)

- Also, would a legion have a centralised armory, or would each "regiment" have its own vehicle pool? Thoughts?

- Also, what Imperial Guard equipment would a Legion have? E-30K lists Ordinatii as part of a regiment!

- Would vehicles like Vindicators be limited as well, they are supposedly newer than Predators and Land Raiders?

Also over on E-30k, it says this about Ultramarines:

Ultramarines. Not only are you NOT the standard from which all other Marines are derived from, your army list has the greatest change from the then current Codex, as you tend to be Armor Regiments, not Infantry Regiments.


- Can anyone reinforce this statement or is it just a rumour?

Many thanks to everyone for the information you have already given.

Cheers,
Chris.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
O.K. Chris,

I'll add my take, based on all the SM data I have.

- Each Battalion and Regiment has it's own Transport Pool, providing those units with Rhinos, Land Raiders and even Razorbacks.

- TO&E lesson - and those SM1 templates reflect this, that's why we use them, 3 companies per Battalion (Bn), 3 Bns per Regiment (Rgt).

- Each Bn has 3 Support (Spt) dets., and each Rgt, 6 Spt Det. ?

- Each Company has 3 dets. ?

- A Great or Grand Company, would be a reinforced Company, say 3 dets, + 1 or 2 Spt dets.

- 22,000 men is really a big Division and a Division is 3 Rgts (or Brigades). Plus not all of those 22,000 Troops are combat soldiers. ?

- A Roman Legion was 10 Centuries, (or 10 Companies) of 100 men each, IIRC. So if you do the math, a Roman Legion is no where near the size of a 22,000 man Division. ?

Just some things to think about. Again, G/W just threw out names, numbers, figures, etc., I'm surprised the SM-1 templates are as good as they are. :o ?
Author:  primarch [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Hi!

Thanks Legion4, I mt memory was correct that it did list drop pod numbers.

Chris, if you can wait a bit I can get you the appropriate information this weekend.

Just let me know what size files you can handle at one.

Primarch
Author:  stormseer [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
This sounds an interesting project Chris, and it'll be cool to see it finished!

...Anyway, about Vindicators; GW fluff contradicts itself- in WD 118, Tony Cotterell (sp?) made a rather good Rhino conversion into a Vindicator, with templates and stuff to make your own. The fluff then had them being used by all SM forces- Chaos as well; there was an Emperors Children example painted up IIRC...

New fluff however, that came out when the newest metal and plastic kit did, has them being developed from STCs discovered since the Heresy, I think- the reason why no Chaos Legions (excluding Iron Warriors of course) have them....

Well, hope that rather lengthy answer on such a small detail helped Chris! hehe ?:;):
Author:  Tas [ Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Space Marine Legions
Quote (stormseer @ 12 2003 Aug.,05:50)
New fluff however, that came out when the newest metal and plastic kit did, has them being developed from STCs discovered since the Heresy, I think- the reason why no Chaos Legions (excluding Iron Warriors of course) have them....

I hate it when they do that, its really annoying...so mine are all captured from the field of battle and tainted by their new masters... :angry:
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