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Current status of Warhammer and WH40K

 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:03 pm 
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Hi!

When you enjoy a "dead game" (as in not supported by the company anymore), there will come a point that you need to ask yourself why are you "into" that particular game (in this case epic).

If the greater part of your enjoyment comes from playing the game and interaction with others also playing the game, then perhaps it is time to move on, since epic as a game where you can find players will increasing become harder and harder.

If your collection of armies is large enough, you could simply "recruit" players to play with you using your stuff, since its minimal investment for them and you get a "group" to play with (I've done this many times in the past).

On the flip side, if you enjoy the collection/modelling/painting/converting aspects to it then stick with it as not all hobby enjoyment is derived from playing the game with others.

Its a very personal choice to be made, which no one can answer but that particular individual.

At this stage for me epic is a private enjoyment, a spectacle to be savored a draw out for as much as possible. I'll set out a table days in advance and set it up with models for a solo game and just leave them there for days, daydreaming.

Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea what I do, but that is what I like at this point in time.

All that matters is what "YOU" get out of it. If the answer is "not much (or nothing)" then you've answered the question of whether sticking with it or not. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:43 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

When you enjoy a "dead game" (as in not supported by the company anymore), there will come a point that you need to ask yourself why are you "into" that particular game (in this case epic).

If the greater part of your enjoyment comes from playing the game and interaction with others also playing the game, then perhaps it is time to move on, since epic as a game where you can find players will increasing become harder and harder.

If your collection of armies is large enough, you could simply "recruit" players to play with you using your stuff, since its minimal investment for them and you get a "group" to play with (I've done this many times in the past).

On the flip side, if you enjoy the collection/modelling/painting/converting aspects to it then stick with it as not all hobby enjoyment is derived from playing the game with others.

Its a very personal choice to be made, which no one can answer but that particular individual.

At this stage for me epic is a private enjoyment, a spectacle to be savored a draw out for as much as possible. I'll set out a table days in advance and set it up with models for a solo game and just leave them there for days, daydreaming.

Perhaps not everyone's cup of tea what I do, but that is what I like at this point in time.

All that matters is what "YOU" get out of it. If the answer is "not much (or nothing)" then you've answered the question of whether sticking with it or not. :)

Primarch


Yes, all good points. Thank you for the post.

To add to my dilmena, though, Mantic Games just came out with their Warpath kickstarter. I want to be part of it, but know I'll never get to play. So, as you mentioned, I'll have to think long and hard and make a decision if it is going to be worth just as a collectable.

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:24 pm 
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My plan is to use the Mantic Warpaht large game rules with my 6mm armies.

You can see a battle report of the older version of the game here:
https://youtu.be/6-QHN9SBVYQ

and here:
https://youtu.be/csVWj8Szmr0

As you can see, it plays quick, and has a kind of epic feel. Keep in mind this is before they diverged making a more skirmishy game and a larger game, so I will have even larger games with the new rules.

A great thing about the size of the battle field for me is that I can play by mail(e-mailing pics to my opponent), since the game only takes up a fairly small space.

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:12 pm 
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bertnernie wrote:
My plan is to use the Mantic Warpaht large game rules with my 6mm armies.

You can see a battle report of the older version of the game here:
https://youtu.be/6-QHN9SBVYQ

and here:
https://youtu.be/csVWj8Szmr0

As you can see, it plays quick, and has a kind of epic feel. Keep in mind this is before they diverged making a more skirmishy game and a larger game, so I will have even larger games with the new rules.

A great thing about the size of the battle field for me is that I can play by mail(e-mailing pics to my opponent), since the game only takes up a fairly small space.


They're also including rules for 10mm scale in the Warpath rulebook - posted about it earier on as I hadn't seen this thread. Would be interesting to see if they downsize their sculpts...

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:32 pm 
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I think of epic and gaming much the same as primarch really, Epic is a private collection for me, never
even played a game of epic myself ! but have always painted and converted minatures.
Regarding GW I only go in the stores these days to buy paint,tools and brushes.

The stores have no atmosphere, crazy pricing and although I still like painting 28mm from time to time, I am
just fascinated by 6mm, you can scale crazy scenery bits and fit it on small table or diorama that in 28mm would be impossible.

GW became a money monster, yes companys have to grow but it lost its hobby charm it used to have in the 80s and 90s, but they also never listen to what people want, over the the inter web all I seem to see regarding
GW is a pipe dream of what players want and its a 30k boxed set of 2 armys, its all over the web as rumours of a plastic boxed set. But this turned out to be false. Why don't they make it !!!!!!!!
Other companys ages ago started sculpting and selling the 28mm primachs, custodians etc as fans loved this stuff, what to GW do, nothing ! most companys would think ah, lets make some of those as everybody seems to like these , but No, they do nothing until recently.

They are not intrested and I am glad the IP thing with that court battle shot them in the foot ;D
They don't support epic or any other specialist games :{[]

Regards Epic


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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:38 pm 
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I'm on the other end of the spectrum. Theres no way I'll put money into a game that i can't activly play in tournaments or against several different opponents.
Gaming for me is a social thing and if that aspect isn't there i'm out.

Never seen the point of collecting stuff I'm not gonna use. I'm better of reading books when I'm alone...

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:28 am 
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mordoten wrote:
I'm on the other end of the spectrum. Theres no way I'll put money into a game that i can't activly play in tournaments or against several different opponents.
Gaming for me is a social thing and if that aspect isn't there i'm out.

Never seen the point of collecting stuff I'm not gonna use. I'm better of reading books when I'm alone...


Horses for courses and all that lol. Everybody is different, I am in my very late 30s and these days getting time
on my own these days is hard to find so enjoy my hobby time on my own when I get chance.
The minatures these days that some of us choose to commission are simply amazing in detail, I just enjoy the
painting,converting and sculpting side of things and always have done for many years

Each to their own, maybe one day I may get a game in, until then I will keep painting and collecting 6mm
which gives me great pleasure ;)

If everybody was the same it would be one very boring world ;D

Regards Epic


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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:08 am 
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bertnernie wrote:
I'm in the same situation. I just moved, thinking I would have far more gamers near me, and would get in more games since my old club met only once a month, and i could barely ever make it. Now I'm in a town where there seems to be no club at all.

I heard that there are some 40k players who meet far on the other side of town, and it's kind of a struggle to get the motivation to travel for 70mins each way to play a game I don't really like. Especially when I can't seem to contact them online, and would basically just be turning up randomly.

I think skirmish games can be fun, but I far prefer mass battle(rank and flank, or EPIC style- both are good)


Are you in waterford city now? (Im not stalking you, I just recall you mentioning it in a previous post!)
If you are, there is some good news, a new GW store in Cork is opening next year (or it might even be this year) which if it takes off might mean an increase in clubs and players. I know it even further to drive for the actual store, but a trip there once a month is a lot closer than GW dublin!

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 3:00 pm 
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primarch wrote:
If your collection of armies is large enough, you could simply "recruit" players to play with you using your stuff, since its minimal investment for them and you get a "group" to play with (I've done this many times in the past). . . At this stage for me epic is a private enjoyment, a spectacle to be savored a draw out for as much as possible.


Very well said, as usual Primarch.

This is going to take some explaining. I used to collect every game under the sun, even if I had no realistic chance of having the time to play. Some might be games that I used to own, got rid of, and wanted to have again, and others might be new. After years of building up a crazy collection, I sold most of it off. Some of it, I wish I hadn't, like Epic, and have spent the last couple of years not just re-building my collection, but also buying some stuff I never had.

My overall collection is much smaller now, but in some cases, I have dups. Like I have a mint Adeptus Titanicus set no one is allowed to touch and I even keep it stored in its own box, but then I have another set to use if I want to play with a friend. Same for SM2, which is the set I used for my battle reports.

So in a sense, I am doing both of what Primarch is doing. But I also do the same for 40k. I have a really nice 40k 2nd Edition collection, with all the old models for small armies for Space Marines, Eldar, Orks, Squats, Tyranids, and a Genestealer cult. I doubt I will ever play these in a game. On the other hand, I have a couple of 40k 3rd edition sets, and leave those out to play with others. Then I have other games, like Battlefield Trinity, or Vor the Maelstom, that I collect stuff for, and will probably never play.

As far as on the topic of 40k and Warhammer... I think its amazing how far 40k has come, but I ended up getting the 6th edition of 40k sometime ago and I just thought it was a mess. Then 7th came out 2 years later and I was like 'darn you GW'. Since I dont seek out 'gamers' to play, I am ok with 2nd edition for my little universe, and my 3rd sets to at least allow me to continue to build some of the new models and have a means to use them. But I am way past trying to keep up with the revolving door of rules being changed for the sake of changing. GW puts out some amazing products, and I enjoy the universe, but the game has gotten too big to play on a 6 by 4 table. I think what they have done is really exciting if you are a model builder, but I have no interest in trying to meet up with other gamers I barely know, and sorting thru the BS of trying to make sense of the game and getting beaten down by units I have no interest in trying to compete with.

As far as Fantasy goes, I miss it. I wasnt a big player but I casually followed it. I loved Battle March on xbox. I have the 6th edition set, expanding on the Empire and Orc armies that came in the starter set, but its really low on my list of priorities. I played fantasy at a gaming convention ages ago, and it was fun, but not enough to suck me in, although I almost bought one of 7th or 8th just for kicks. I liked the world, and I love Man O War, but I also have to admit that the world did need an update and some kind of change, I just dont think AoS was the way to go. But as I wasnt a player or collector before Aos, all the change did was really prevent me from being open to the idea in the future. So in this case GW didnt lose me because I wasnt a WTB player, but they also failed to make me interested in playing.

I can't blame GW for everything. They are either hit or miss. Some things they do terrific on, and others I think they flop. But I have changed too. Over 20 years of gaming and I feel like I have found enough to keep me entertained for the rest of my life, whether its by myself, or playing with a friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Well put, KTG17.

I didn't really get into 5th or 6th 40k as there were so many other things to play. But I keep meaning to dip into 7th but when I read about the exclusive "formations" rules, "dataslates" and so on, my head spins. It was bad enough with list building stuff in the old editions, then allies and this is a bit bonkers.

I think that when it comes to a 28mm army, especially a large one rather than a skirmish one, where you have so much painting and modelling to do - and then problems with storing and transporting it to a venue... When you arrive and put it down, it better be a bloody good / FUN / intuitive set of rules to justify it all.

I will be getting a 7th ed. 40k rulebook to give it a go maybe later this year. I really want to feel excited for it and painting some Space Wolves and not having to "optimise my list" or whatever to get something out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Another thing I have to point out is that I have a real issue with sacrificing reality for game mechanics.

Like I can't accept the short weapon ranges in 40k anymore than I can stand one formation being limited to shooting at a single enemy formation in EpicA. Or how units in WFB were locked in formation with even a small number of troops. I find it impossible to believe that 10 guys would line up in two 5 man rows, and get some kind of advantage doing that.

But once I see gaping holes in what I think would be practical, a system loses a lot of credibility to me, and that's one of the things that is lost on me with 40k. The fact that an ancient race like the Eldar, who have very sophisticated and advance technology, would use a shuriken rifle with such a ridiculous short range, that could quite possible barely get a chance to be used against a charging horde, just loses some credibility to me. No wonder they are going extinct. I know they want to make the armies different, but it stopped me from collecting Eldar in 40k, when they started out being one of my favorite races. I haven't seen some of the new massive Tau suits and Eldar Wraithlords in person yet, but I can't help wonder how tall they are, and if they are taller than 12 inches, that means an Eldar Guardian couldn't shoot past one if it laid down on its back. Those things only look about 4-5 stories tall. Maybe these ranges would be easier to stomach if the game was 15mm instead. But when I know an M4 has an effective range of 500 meters, nothing GW can say will make me accept that a futuristic army capable of inter-galactic travel is going to use weapons with a weapon range shorter than the distance I could throw.

I also understand the need to try and make a game with more movement, and to allow for fun things like close combat, but respect the scale. Even in Epic 40k and Epic A, I found it ridiculous that a unit could March for more many times more the distance it could shoot in a single turn. Its like teleporting across a battlefield, and I can't stand that.

I guess as I get older the more critical I get. I always loved Epic because I thought it was fun playing infantry, tanks, and titans, who were all around the same scale, being able to fight around buildings, trees, rivers and lakes, also around the same scale, without things being too abstract. I guess its why I revere SM1 so much. I know its a slow system, and kind of a mess with rules everywhere, but the general principle of it is so rich in detail and options that I can imagine or even relive heroic events on the battlefield. As Epic evolved, the game became less about individual units and what they could do and more about the detachment/formation. This is fine if we are playing a counter based game, but when the last Rhino in a formation can't see the formation the Rhinos in front can see, and its got its own target to shoot at, f#@&ing let it shoot at it. Its what would happen in real life. And when I am told that the actual position of the model doesn't matter in relation to what is actually happening in the game, then I am done.

But in order to move games along, its like you have to let go of reality and limit the decisions players can make, so peeps spend more time playing than twiddling their measuring stick. But as I said in my post above, I only really play with friends, and we have always had the room to leave a game in progress until we could meet again. I know that doesn't work for quick meet me ups and tournaments though, and because I don't play in those, I don't bother with systems that cater to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 10:54 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
I'm on the other end of the spectrum. Theres no way I'll put money into a game that i can't activly play in tournaments or against several different opponents.
Gaming for me is a social thing and if that aspect isn't there i'm out.

Never seen the point of collecting stuff I'm not gonna use. I'm better of reading books when I'm alone...


Hi!

Twenty years ago I was right there with you in those feelings. ;D

Now I will be 50 this year. I no longer have much in common with gamers that usually frequent the local stores, so I really can "connect" with them any more.

Unlike most collectors I have massively used all my stuff across the years. Therefore while the social aspect of gaming is not that important to me anymore I do use my epic collection for my private enjoyment as often as time permits.

Given all my recent primarch sized ongoing projects are now bearing fruit, I am quite giddy with excitement as I view the beauty before me. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:28 pm 
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primarch wrote:

If your collection of armies is large enough, you could simply "recruit" players to play with you using your stuff, since its minimal investment for them and you get a "group" to play with (I've done this many times in the past).


I've done that, didn't work (twice: FoW and Epic). Either they wouldn't play anything out of 28mm, or the game system is too far from WH-like.

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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:07 pm 
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KTG17 wrote:
Another thing I have to point out is that I have a real issue with sacrificing reality for game mechanics.

Or how units in WFB were locked in formation with even a small number of troops. I find it impossible to believe that 10 guys would line up in two 5 man rows, and get some kind of advantage doing that.



Well it's very likely that that specific oddity came from historical wargaming seeing how all of the early GW crew were into history. In that case those 10 miniatures represent many more men and it is in fact only the frontage of the unit that is in any relation to the ground scale. Hence terms like 1:33 ratio meaning that one 28 mm miniature in fact represents 33 real soldiers. There are obviously issues with this as well, but that's where it started I believe. Some modern historical rules tend to echew it also.


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 Post subject: Re: Current status of Warhammer and WH40K
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:44 am 
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For me and my brother, 40k lost us around 4th and WHFB around 7th. For 40k and whfb both, some of the main reasons being the rules heavy tone, constant changing of rulebooks and army books. Specifically for 40k, we felt the lack of alternating activations was a big turnoff, as for fantasy, the game was directed to a few huge blocks and we prefer multiple smaller units. So we switched to Kings of War and started our own adaptation of Epic to 28mm (in the sig if anyone is interested).

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