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Fantasy Battle - How good is it?

 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:47 pm 
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I agree.  I prefer generally to have a competitive scenario.  The idea falls down when lists aren't balanced and it gets annoying when rules are changed to make 'flavour of the month units'.  40k suffers from those things.

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:03 am 
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I would rate Epic as the most tournament-orientated of any game I play. Perhaps it is just because I'm involved in trying to balance armies, but even though a lot of emphasis is placed on non-tournament games in the book, the existance of the ubiquitous tournament-scenario and the fact that the players tend to be serious, competitive wargamers makes it that way?


The thing is, Epic was designed that way in the first place, while Fantasy has only become that way over time, and the system really wasn't built for such an ethos... it has many, many fundamental imbalances that can be easily exploited by a cheesy player.

They're selling an apple as an orange, basically.

Don't get me wrong, Fantasy's a very tactical game, but its rules are a long way from watertight.

There's a reason why Bretonians always are in a clear lead in Tournament rankings. :(


EDIT:

Seeing the umpteenth 'Empire Knights army backed up by an artillery train & with all character slots filled with mages'.... or the Skaven army with minimum troops & maximum ranged weapons... you might as well not play because 95% of the time you're going to lose against those lists no matter what your tactics.

Or any Bretonian list, anywhere, ever. :D





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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:58 am 
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As much as I like the background for 40k the game is a dissapointment compared to Epic. Fantasy is a different story though - as others have said it is all about manouever. It is probably my second favourite game after Epic.

Here's a review I wrote for a local newsletter. Warning: it does have a lot of DBM and previous edition references in it.


V2: Review of WFB 7th - Overview of Changes and Impressions.  

I received the new Warhammer Fantasy Battle (WFB) 7th edition rulebook today and have finally finished reading it. It is well written, and certainly more accessible than some other rule sets out there (eg WRG?s DBM ancient rules). However it is more lengthy as a result, with plentiful pictures and diagrams.

First off, it is worth noting that the rules are in fact available in two versions. The first is a small soft cover rulebook in the boxed set game ?The Battle For Skull Pass? (which also includes about 100+ dwarf and goblin figures, dice templates, and an intro to gaming and scenario book). This is the version I bought for $95, I quickly sold the figures for $65, leaving me with rulebook, templates and dice etc for $30. I will probably eventually sell the extra dice and templates (though it doesn?t hurt to have spares) so that the rulebook will have cost me about $20 ? very reasonable in other words. (Basic rules: 46 pages. Total rules: 144 pages including index etc.).  The plastic figures in the boxed set are very numerous and of good quality, with much variety in pose and type, and those interested in goblins or dwarfs would get a good starting force for these two races.

The second version of the rules is a large hardback rulebook for $85 which has more colour pictures, extra sections on painting and terrain making, some extra scenarios etc (Total pages uncertain - someone tell me??). (For the sake of completeness I should also mention that there is a $200 collectors? edition if you have more money than you know what to do with).

My choice of the first small soft cover book over the hardback was motivated by two main factors, (of which the first was the most important).
1.) Convenience ? the little book is a LOT more convenient to carry around and use.
2.) Money and what do you really want? ? I don?t want the extra ?how to paint an orc? details cluttering up my space and life. I?ve read it all before and even if I hadn?t it?s all available for free on the internet anyway.  For those who like having the details and extra gaming ideas, the hardback may be preferable.

Basic statistics for all the units of 16 races are included at the back of the rulebooks, though for standard WFB tournament play the purchase of the full army list books is necessary (about $40 each).

The quality of production of the hardback book is obviously superior. However, as I?m used to free downloaded and printed rules from GW?s specialist game range, (or DBM?s low production quality) this does not bother me greatly.


Overall the approach with 7th is not a radical change from 6th (as you would hope by the time a ruleset reaches its 7th edition). Instead the whole approach is a streamlining and clarifying of the previous edition, and a few tweaks for balance reasons. The most notable addition is probably a better terrain system (both setup, rules for buildings, and special features - eg sacred monuments which fortify troops morale).

7th edition concentrates more on one type of game (the standard competition pitched battle game, or pick-up game between two players) as that is what most players play most of the time, (an approach similar to DBM, as are several of the changes in this rule set).

The rest of this article will examine the specifics of the changes that have occurred with 7th edition.


TERRAIN: Much overdue, attention has finally been paid to this area. Choosing ?good ground? is a vital skill of generalship, and often heavily influences a battles outcome. Sun Tzu and DBM players may object that weather is not also included as a critical factor (For Warhammer players not familiar with that name, Sun Tzu wrote the famous treatise on warfare ?The Art of War? over 2 millenia ago, and emphasised the importance of the earth (terrain) and the heavens (weather) on a battles outcome).

WFB 7th edition has a very simple approach, which nevertheless would appear to generate similar results to that used in ancients competition rule sets such as DBM (eg terrain around the periphery and an open centre of the battlefield ? and input from both sides as to what sort of terrain the battle is fought over).

A group of terrain pieces (4-6) are chosen at the start of the game by agreement (or 2-3 each if both players want to use items from their collection). Each piece is from 4x4 to 12x12 inches size, and there is a comprehensive listing of types and effects. In addition players are allowed to take 1 ?special feature? if they have it modelled. Special features give some units bonuses (mainly psychological) if it is held by an army (eg a sacred monument).

A dice roll decides which player takes first turn to place a piece, and players then alternate in placing terrain features chosen from the initial group. The only restriction on terrain placement is that no piece can be closer to the centre of the table than 12?. A player may decide to stop placing terrain after placing a piece, at which point his opponent gets to place one final piece and terrain setup is over. To stay within the guidelines that means 4-6 pieces, 1 of which may be a special feature (the guidelines recommend only 1 special feature per game, so if both players want to use one a dice roll will have to be made ? or players could agree to just use 1 feature each).

After terrain is setup, both players roll a D6 and highest gets to choose which side to take and deploys his first unit. Deployment zones are 12? depth on long table sides.

Important note: The terrain and victory conditions rules given in the rules provide good guidelines for a ?pickup? game between two players with no umpire. However, in typical WFB tournament settings the world over, terrain is placed by the umpire (or at least it has been for previous editions, and I suspect this will not change). Also, victory conditions are often heavily modified by the umpire with scenario specific rules (though defeating the enemy army is always a big part of victory!). Thus, those wishing to be competitive at tournaments would be advised to choose some ?bad ground? or challenging terrain in their pickup games much of the time, rather than aiming exclusively for their favourite terrain setups game after game (which would soon become pretty boring in any case!).


DEPLOYMENT: Same as before, both sides alternate deploying units, first to finish has greater chance of seizing the initiative and getting first turn (plus 1 to D6 rolloff for first turn).

MOVEMENT: The biggest change here is that march moves are no longer possible for skirmishers within 8? of the enemy. Ie the manoeuvrability of skirmishers close to the enemy is restricted (same as other troops). Given widespread complaints about skirmishers under the previous edition this is probably justified. This rule change should make players more cautious about getting their skirmishers close to enemy units, which is a good thing.

Also you now declare charges and move them in order of declaration.

SHOOTING: It is now possible to ?snipe? at lone characters who are close to units but not in them. This may well make shooting more useful in general, though it still lacks in power compared to its historical counterpart versus mounted troops. Also characters of a different size to the rank and file can now take protection from the unit they join (unless they are unit strength 5 or greater)! This means a character on a horse may take protection in a unit of infantry, or even a Minotaur Doombull in a unit of beastmen!

MAGIC: No longer is it possible to take ?battery? wizards who just boost more powerful wizards, each wizard must use their own power dice. Magic has become riskier to use. Wizards can die or lose their abilities a lot more easily ? and indeed with the first spell I cast under 7th my one and only wizard, of the lowest grade possible - lost her magic abilities for the rest of the game. Spell lists and effects have also been tweaked a little for balance purposes and to make all spell lores viable choices.

COMBAT: A lot of changes (more than has been stated on most internet forums).

Combats: Each combat is now resolved completely before the next one is resolved (like DBM), meaning that it is important to pick which order you fight your combats, as outcomes can affect other combats (see ?pursuing into fresh enemy? below).

Fleeing and Pursuit: The rules for exactly how to move fleeing units and pursuing units have been tidied up and clarified ? this was much needed.

Fleeing units that fail to roll higher flee rolls than their pursuers pursuit roll are removed immediately. Otherwise fleeing units move straight back (the intention, to borrow DBM?s glossary of mathematical precision ? is that units move perpendicular to the enemies edge), away from the victorious unit with the highest unit strength (first completing a 180 or 90 degree pivot if necessary). Impassable terrain, or non-fleeing enemy with unit strength 5 or more in this flee path will result in the fleeing unit being eliminated. Expect to see an even greater use of fast cavalry and flyers behind enemy lines, stopping ?recoils? DBM style. However, units can still escape from units actually attacking them in their flank or rear if they roll a higher flee move than these units. If a fleeing unit would end up in another unit it is placed immediately beyond that unit (and friendly units burst through by units of 5 or more unit strength have to take panic tests).

Pursuers choose a direction to pursue (front, left or right flanks, or rear) and pursue all enemies in that direction, first pivoting on the spot if necessary by 90 or 180 degrees, and then moving straight forwards. If several units are pursuing and they would interfere with each others move they are moved in order of highest unit strength.

Pursuit into fresh enemy: A very significant change from 6th edition and one which has caused much debate, is that if you pursue or overrun into another enemy unit you fight again that round (but only if the unit pursued into is already engaged and has not yet fought its combat this round). Units can only ever pursue once each round, and so consequently only fight one extra round of combat. Thus, as stated previously the order combat resolutions are chosen has the potential to vastly alter the end result.

Overrrun: Units may only overrun only if they charged that round, not if they were charged.

Insane Courage (new rule): This was widely used by players the world over as a house rule and has been incorporated into 7th edition. If you roll double one you automatically pass your break tests regardless of the factors.

No more lap around (rule removed): This rule tended to be messy in practical application and slowed gameplay down, but it did mean that you could finish off enemies faster in combat. Its removal will make certain unbreakable units like Chaos Spawn, a lot more powerful.


PSYCHOLOGY: Some big changes here as well. The biggest is that units in close combat NEVER take psychology tests, for example panic tests for being charged in the flank. If being charged in the flank has to have an effect ? it now has to be from the actual combat resolution (casualties, loss of rank bonus etc). This is a very big change ? it is assumed that all psychological reactions for units in close combat is accounted for in their break tests. I like this simplification and abstraction (well of course I would being a DBM player!). However, this change will negatively affect armies relying on psychological effect for much of their power (eg fear and terror causing armies like ogres, undead, and daemons), more than others, and significantly so in some cases.

Also all psychology test ranges are now standardised at 6? (rather than varying ranges) which makes things a lot easier to remember. Additionally there is clarification on situations where characters have psychological profiles different to the unit they have joined.

More specifics on psychological special rules:

Panic: If friendly units (unit strength 5 or more) flee through your unit it must take a panic test.

Fear: Now possible to stand against feared enemies who outnumber you by rolling double ones. (Insane courage rule again).

Terror: If you try to charge a terror causing enemy and fail ? you now flee!

Frenzy: Now your horses are frenzied too?

Unbreakable Swarms: Now suffer extra wounds due to combat resolution (ie they will die a lot more quickly). Hordes of rats won?t slow that dragon down anymore.

WEAPONS: Great Weapons now only add +1 to strength when used mounted (rather than +2). This downgrade to great weapons used from horseback was because everyone in 6th edition ended up using great weapons for mounted characters instead of more historical options like lances and spears.

CHARIOTS: Characters no longer have to step down from a chariot to accept a challenge from another character, and no longer take damage if their chariot is destroyed. In other words chariots have become a more attractive transport option for characters (especially for wizards, who previously were under a cruel Homeric code of honour ? forced to step out of their chariot to be slaughtered by mad Achilles wannabes issuing personal challenges?).

Chariots may also voluntarily move through difficult terrain (but still take D6 Strength 6 hits so you would have to be mad or desperate to try it).

When pursing into a fresh enemy, chariot impact hits will be applied to any unit frontal to them (even if one of those is a unit that subsequently charged them ? rare but it might happen).

Also fleeing chariots will cause impact hits to units they flee through. Ie friendly units, or enemy units which are fleeing or less than unit strength 5.

SKIRMISHERS: Some clarification with numerous diagrams explaining charge situations.

FAST CAVALRY: Can now shoot (as well as move) when they rally - a nod to the historical use of this class.

UNIT STRENGTHS: Helpful summary added.

BUILDINGS: New rules for occupying and fighting over buildings. Nice simple abstracted rules, that give results similar in historical effect to what you would expect. In short, each side fights with a total of models up to unit strength ten (so 10 infantry, 5 cavalry, or 3 ogres). There are no charge bonuses, and the only thing that counts for combat resolution is wounds caused.


CONCLUSION:

7th edition is a definite improvement over the previous edition, and the option to get just a small rulebook rather than a weighty tome is also attractive (a shame it is not available separately without all the figures and clutter though). All up ? an attractive package for those wanting a clean and tidy, but still tactically sophisticated game system for the fantasy genre.

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:59 am 
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Competitiveness - true, that can come out, but if you find a nice bunch of players (many around even here in Malta) you can just have fun battles - and campaigns, which are even better.
Cheesy armies - well, yes, and the worst I've known to be used (locally) is a wood elf army which stays holed up in woods which are moved (elves and all) throughout the game by a forest of mages, to come out to attack in the last couple of turns. There's nothing which can't be cured (or countered), but getting this bit of cheese in a tourney can spoil the fun. But as long as you avoid anyone hyper, it can be a grand old game.
Long - yes, that it can well be!

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:40 am 
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Because I wanted to focus on BFG and LotR I sold a lot of WHFB stuff. I have some warriors left.

I did keep some really cool models, (and I must say WHFB has some real good models) these are Archaon on his Daemonic Steed, Egrimm von Horstmann on the Two-Headed Dragon Baudrois (Have this for a long time but I painted it quite good even if my skills improved), a Bloodthirster and an old Dragon Ogre.

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:13 am 
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Thanks guys, that is all really helpful. One question, if the emphasis is on movement and setup, does that mean that the outcome of the game is mostly determined by the end of turn two or three, when most units are in combat? How much dynamism is there in the game, with the ability to rethink your tactics by turn three and surprise yourself?

Currently, I am simply very tempted just to rewrite Battlestorm from my own use. I just want a game to allow me to use the random fantasy minis that I have collected over the years and play at home every now and again. Still, the new version of WHFB has got me tempted, especially the 'stand alone book' (I cant get more minis!).

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:17 am 
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I'd recomend you just play WFB, it's a solid system as long as you don't game with numpties.


And yes, battle plans will always modify as the game turns run on... an unexpected failure to control your troops (Say they persue after a fleeing enemy when you don't want them to) can throw your whole plan into disarray and then you spend the next couple of turns trying to fix what went wrong... :)

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:17 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 04 2006,09:13)
QUOTE
Thanks guys, that is all really helpful. One question, if the emphasis is on movement and setup, does that mean that the outcome of the game is mostly determined by the end of turn two or three, when most units are in combat? How much dynamism is there in the game, with the ability to rethink your tactics by turn three and surprise yourself?

Games often go down to the wire in my experience, with a series of move and countermoves continuing to the end. A lot depends on the skill of the players. Sometimes it is all over bar the screaming by turn 3-4 but usually that will be because someone has made a terrible blunder somewhere...

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:30 pm 
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(CyberShadow @ Oct. 03 2006,12:55)
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What other games are there that are really good, different, inspired...?


Armies of Arcana (Thane's Games) and Maelstorme (Alternative Armies) come to mind. The latter has _really_ different C&C system while the former is more traditional but allows the player to construct his own army.


(CyberShadow @ Oct. 04 2006,10:13)
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I just want a game to allow me to use the random fantasy minis that I have collected over the years and play at home every now and again.

In that case I really recommend you give Armies of Arcana a try. It has extensive unit creation system and is overall a very good fantasy mass combat system.

In fact, if you want to take a look I can borrow you my own copy of the rules. Just PM me.  :)

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:47 pm 
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I took a break from WFB when the army books for the 4th edition came out as special characters and magic became excessively dominent. 5th edition was equally bad, but when 6th edition came back, I rejoined the fold and collected an Empire army from the provice of Stirland (low numbers of gunpower weapons, few knights, infantry based).

I got trashed three times running by a Bretonnian all cav army, the only time I came close to victory was when my army was obliterated in turn 1-2 save for a unit of ogres (most recent army to be released) which proceeded to chew up the entire Bretonnian army. The game ended as victory for the Bretonnians, but they only had one model left on the table, a lone BSB with one wound remaining!

I suspect it was combination of some codex escalation and my improper use of the Empire army.

One house rule inspired by 3rd edition was that if you lose a combat you get pushed back two inches even if you pass your leadership roll. It made games with the Dwarves more dynamic, and in general made the game more exciting.

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:08 pm 
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I would suggest Chronopia as a ruleset.... but it seems Warzone/Chronopia is cursed and every company producing the brand fails. Oh well. At least you can buy the leftover stock from Prince August.


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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:55 pm 
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(Magnus @ Oct. 04 2006,14:08)
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I would suggest Chronopia as a ruleset.... but it seems Warzone/Chronopia is cursed and every company producing the brand fails. Oh well. At least you can buy the leftover stock from Prince August.

Chronopia is a skirmish game and not a mass combat game, as is Warlord CS mentioned BTW.

Now converting Chronopia to a mass combat game shouldn't be too hard. Hmmmmm... anybody interested in giving me a hand?  :;):  Oh, and if somebody takes this up, please just PM me so we don't hijack Cybershadow's thread.

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:28 pm 
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Thanks again guys.

WHFB - I am coming dangerously close to picking up the rule book here. I have (I think) third edition, and this was good. I guess that the fact that it is a bit of a juggernaught has put me off WHFB for a while. Because it is so popular, it is often considered as the 'standard' rule set, and therefore basic. I will think about it, but the 30 pound price tag doesnt help much.

Armies of Arcana - I looked at this a while ago. It has been described as 'WHFB with the serial numbers filed off'.  :D  It seems OK, but I have not  seen anything or learned anything about it that makes me think 'ohh, cool'.

Maelstrom - This seems interesting. I will see if I can find a copy of this.

Chronopia - I have actually found a couple of copies of the rules for this on EBay. I will pick up a copy if it stays cheap enough. If I do pick this up, I would be interested in converting it to mass combat!

Raven - Not yet mentioned, but I read a review that said that it was a very good rules set, but hideously complicated. Another eye on a copy on EBay for that.

What I like about Battlestorm is that you actually have different formation types - close ranks, open ranks, etc. You also determine strike order by the length of the weapon, rather than initiative.

Any other rules sets to consider?

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:01 pm 
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(Markconz @ Oct. 03 2006,20:58)
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MOVEMENT: The biggest change here is that march moves are no longer possible for skirmishers within 8? of the enemy. Ie the manoeuvrability of skirmishers close to the enemy is restricted (same as other troops). Given widespread complaints about skirmishers under the previous edition this is probably justified. This rule change should make players more cautious about getting their skirmishers close to enemy units, which is a good thing.

Good. Skirmishers can be bloody boring sometimes.

SHOOTING: It is now possible to ?snipe? at lone characters who are close to units but not in them.

Yech. Great. So now it is completely impossible to field characters outside of units. I was hoping they?d go the OTHER way and make characters near units more protected from spells, cannon balls, etc. That?s sad.

Also characters of a different size to the rank and file can now take protection from the unit they join (unless they are unit strength 5 or greater)! This means a character on a horse may take protection in a unit of infantry, or even a Minotaur Doombull in a unit of beastmen!
Yey! Stupid that a lord on a daemonic steed could be picked out of a unit of chaos knights anyway.

MAGIC: No longer is it possible to take ?battery? wizards who just boost more powerful wizards, each wizard must use their own power dice.
Glad to hear this!

Magic has become riskier to use.
Bugger *looks at magic-heavy daemons and undead armies...*

Fleeing and Pursuit: The rules for exactly how to move fleeing units and pursuing units have been tidied up and clarified ? this was much needed.
Good.

No more lap around (rule removed): This rule tended to be messy in practical application and slowed gameplay down, but it did mean that you could finish off enemies faster in combat. Its removal will make certain unbreakable units like Chaos Spawn, a lot more powerful.
Agreed... not sure I liked lap round, but removing it altogether seems strange. We?re going to get some downright strange situations here ? a single model will be able to take on a whole unit and still only have to fight a couple of guys.


PSYCHOLOGY: Some big changes here as well. The biggest is that units in close combat NEVER take psychology tests,
*looks at daemons, minotaurs and undead again* what!? Argh! Downgrading magic AND making Fear and Panic less effective? I guess my Necromancers are going on the shelf in favour of some more Vampires...

Unbreakable Swarms: Now suffer extra wounds due to combat resolution (ie they will die a lot more quickly). Hordes of rats won?t slow that dragon down anymore.
Excellent! About time too, feckin' rats!

Overall, that all sounds really good. Left with the nagging feeling that those specific armies I play are going to suffer from the changes most, though...

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 Post subject: Fantasy Battle - How good is it?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:09 pm 
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(Markconz @ Oct. 04 2006,08:17)
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Games often go down to the wire in my experience, with a series of move and countermoves continuing to the end. A lot depends on the skill of the players. Sometimes it is all over bar the screaming by turn 3-4 but usually that will be because someone has made a terrible blunder somewhere...

Agreed. Turn 3 and 4 tend to be absolutely pivotal and very bloody. To be honest, since maneuvering is so important, usually games have little or no combat (excepting artillery and magic) before turn 3 or 4. Turn 5 and 6 tend to be quite tactical as well, usually spent trying to pull the remnants of each army back together and scrabble for victory points.


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