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Space Marines and ... romance?

 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:22 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
The Dark Angels Chapter are basically one long gay joke by GW.
Even their name comes from a poem about being gay.


A poem about being gay by Lionel Johnson...

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
The Dark Angels Chapter are basically one long gay joke by GW.
Even their name comes from a poem about being gay.


A poem about being gay by Lionel Johnson...


hey, i actually didn't know that :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:13 pm 
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So that's why I'm not surprised that a Dark Angel marine eyes up a Titan crewman... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:42 pm 
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Personally, I find the "joke" in poor taste. Johnson fought to resist his homosexual urges based on his spiritual beliefs and biographers have made the case that the struggle contributed to his alcoholism and early death. The poem is about that internal conflict.

Regardless of where you fall with respect to beliefs on homosexuality, that's a tragic story.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:30 pm 
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? I think I missed something here.... when did this get serious and who are people talking about?

Either way, I find it a little precious that a poll is locked due to rancor (?) yet now the same lockee posts the same deal here. Some consistency Neal? How is this thread any more relevant to Epic?

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Quite possibly controlling such urges makes for more unbalanced/mentally malable soldiers, in the same way its been shown to affect those who are celibate and engaged in various professions today.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:11 am 
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I do concur about the tragic aspects of repressed homosexuality, but I don't think anyone here made any homophobic references.

Actually in history, homosexuality has always been rampant in armies. I quite like the idea that it is also the case with space marines (with all the machismo of their brotherhood and soldier friendship, kinship even). Frank Herbert, among other, did cite an army of homosexuals in his Dune cycle, where it was said to emphasize fraternity, solidarity, morale and what we might call "esprit de corps" (pardon my french :)), that is, the sense of belonging to a whole more important than the individual.

There has been various degree of homosexuality in militant orders (The templars and hospitalers crusading order notably) in real life, and many ritual of chivalry were based on gesture that we would now consider as homosexual, like the osculum for example.

I Like the idea of homosexual Space marines :) It nicely subverts the hypocrisy of the GW universe, where every level of violence is acceptable but no sex whatsoever (which is not kid friendly, compared to torture, racism and genocide).


Last edited by Athmospheric on Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:41 am 
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While I have never seen anything "official" either I tend to think that the hormonal system of marines is so radically altered they simply don't experience any need. However, as for the sisters of battle I remember reading a Ciaphas Cain novel where he said that contrary to what most people believer the vows of the sisters don't include a vow of celibacy. However, most of them are too busy fighting heretics to have that kind of activities.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:38 am 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I think the Space Marines are probably homosexuals.

Well I don't think so ... ::) See here we go again, more holes and silliness in the GW 40K fluff ... What makes most males good soldiers at the seminal level is testosterone at high levels especially experienced at younger ages (about 16-25 year of age). Now I'd think bio-genetically engineered soldiers, like G/W's SMs are supposed to be, would or could be "alterted" to fit the needs of the Imperial Gov't ... Now that being said, at one point way back when, the Space Wolves all had Latin names, they sounded more like Romans than Norse. Then later the fluff even hinted that they were Werewolves ? The Dark Angels were all supposed to be American Indian types ... Even the the Blood Angels were alluded to as being Vampires ? So now they are all gay with the Dark Angels in the lead ... Please ... typical of G/W playing Orwellian New Speak with the fluff ... So are the Space Wolves gay werewolves and the Blood Angels gay Vampires ? Indeed ... more G/W silliness. Really has nothing to do with the game and like much of the fluff I dismiss it. When the ever changing G/W staff writes up this stuff, I have to think again, that none ever served in the military. And really know nothing about being a real Soldier. Now I never heard of the "Gay Johnson" poem ... And really don't think it matters ... But whatever motivated the though that, along with all the other silliness ... Werewolves, Vampires now gay ? May be someone there has some latent homosexual issues ? Or is making some statement on gays ? I really don't care ... it has nothing to do with the game. Just continues to confirms my thought that the G/W fluff is just plain convoluted, silly and fickle ... I'd think that if SM's & SoBs got together there would be "a Rumble in the Jungle", "Lust in the Dust", etc., etc. ... And what 2 or more consenting adults do behind closed doors, is their own business ... and it certainly has no place in the game or fluff for that matter, in my mind ... And I'll freely admit I think the Werewolf/Vampire thing is less silly that the Gay thing. And I'm not sorry to say that I like girls/women/females and always have. ;D Call me "Old School" ! :D Whatever !! ;)
::)

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Last edited by Legion 4 on Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:42 am 
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Legion 4 wrote:
And what 2 or more consenting adults do behind closed doors, is there own business


I like L4 thought process...2 or more

LOL :D

Btw, are you up super late? or super early?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:48 am 
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Total off topic but does that mean what an individual does isn't? :)

Also remember L4 merely moonlights as a 6mm obbssessed wargamer, he is really a PI :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:52 am 
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Thanks Boys ... ;) Yes as a PI, I see some things that are better left unsaid ... and keep some odd hours at times ... ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:31 pm 
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L4, it's okay bro. What happens in the barracks stays in the barracks. Your comment of 'being a soldier' is irrelevant since homosexuality has been accepted in historical armies and surely soldiers in the 41st millennium are as comparable to the 2nd millennium as to the 1st millenium, i.e. not very comparable at all. The universe of the 41st millennium is so vast you could easily have worlds that are completely homosexual, where women are killed at birth and all males reproduce asexually through some artificial wombs or whatever. It's sci-fi, stop bringing it down to Earth and for that matter to a specific period in time and a specific military force.

I don't give a damn either way, but my view of Space Marines has always been as that of religious orders so no sanctioned sex but the occasional hetero/homo slip-up happens. In fact I remember a quote from a novel or piece of fluff that went 'we do not care for such fleeting pleasures when we can bask in the glory of the emperor' or something along those lines. As for having working bits, well surely they have as aren't there descriptions or references to traitor marines raping people? Or was that just some tentacle action?

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Last edited by carlos on Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marines and ... romance?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:49 pm 
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Of course it has no place in the fluff, especially if it's homosexual :)

And actually the idea of homosexual male still being a male, virile and everything, and specially in the army, is very disturbing to most people, specially military.

However, while the military world tend to be quite homophobic (necessary machismo), statistics anonymously gathered in confined "male only" space (navy, specially submariner) tend to show a different picture. And there is no reason to suppose that homosexuals would be less efficient as military people.

I must admit I suspected I might derange quite a few people by speaking seriously about homosexuality in the military, but actually this is quite on topic. I am not implying homosexuality of anyone here, military or not, but then again, if you take what I was saying as an offence, *You* might look homophobic to me.

You don't have to clarify your sexual preferences Legion 4, I don't remember implying anything about American veterans in my previous post :) I merely stated that homosexuality was probably no rarer in army than in the civilian population, and as until very recently it was a mono-genre organization, possibly more frequent.
Specially, as, as you said, testosterone is the stuff of aggression AND the stuff of libido.

Anyone who would maintain that homosexuality doesn't exist in armies would be just as credible as Mahmoud Ahmadinejad when he maintain that it doesn't exist in Iran. I believe the current statistic is something like 1 or 2% of the population. Those would be the people actually realising their homosexuality. In any group larger than a few hundreds of people, say a thousand, it would be preposterous to suppose that "homosexuality doesn't exist here".

I don't think GW would ever want to imply anything such as this, even if they had a joke long time ago when the intended public was adult and the joke restricted to people at least a little versed in poetry. It is not a subject that usually pass easily with people collecting toy soldier in general. But SPECIALLY because sex is a taboo thing when speaking about games, and homosexuality a taboo thing when speaking about soldiers, I like to envision marines, when they have romances, to have romances with other marines.

Specially as male friendship, and the customs and gesture of it in the middle age, particularly among knights and monks - both archetypes inspiring the SM archetype in GW universe - was sometime quite ambiguous or even borderline compared to the vision we have of it now.

The idea of Uriel Ventris and Pasanius as lovers (possibly platonic) does come really easily to the mind, for example. At least for me, but I realise I might not think of such things in the way most of us toy-soldier collecting people do :)


Last edited by Athmospheric on Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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