Nitpick wrote:
While I am in no way an authority on Epic, I would wonder why said Polyverse initiative failed. It seems the peer community is by nature fickle. I would hazard that most would like to be captains of their own microverses, and rules sets, rather than part of someone else's hobbyincarnation. This would account for the remarkable longevity of the Priestly branded hodgepodge of stolen ideas that is 40K - the genesis of it lies outside the supporting community.
See, this is what I'm talking about. Polyversal
had no microverse, as far as I can see, despite claims to the contrary. So many people play Epic and stick to it because it's
GW's microverse. To use Craig as an example:
Craigm999 wrote:
A bit late for Epic in this respect (especially with no-sugar daddies around to back it) but it is funny the amount of interest we get from passers by when playing, it seems almost everyone has a bit of love for the 6mm, whether it's nostalgia or new interest i don't think it would be too hard to get a few more players.
How many do you think were interested just because it was 6mm, compared to those interested because it was GW's 40K universe and spess mehreens etc. being played out in 6mm?
I know about the various influences on 40K/Rogue Trader, and that some of them are still kinda obvious, and I'm suitably cynical about it. But you have to admit that GW have built up one heck of a gothic galaxy-wide space opera that's found it's own particular footing, for gamers to dive into (at whatever miniature scale) with plenty of sandbox bits around the sides for custom SM chapters, IG regiments, craftworlds, clans, etc. etc. (even if bits of it are getting steadily more ridiculous)
It's a powerful hook. I've seen a lot of people admit they stick with 40K because of the background and minis. Almost never because of the prices and rules. I can't imagine it's not a factor for Epic, too.
In contrast, the Polyversal site has pics of some nice minis, particularly tanks, from the ranges of it's partner businesses. And nice minis are an important hook for a game. (for sci-fi/fantasy anyway) But... that was it. You might as well have had the photo caption 'Faction #53c6k4 engages Faction #8n3b74 for possession of Objective ref: 2n57'. Where's the context?
So I don't think it's because gamers are fickle and caught up in their own little worlds. Rather that they're 'loyal' to a relatively deep, involved world that already has pretty good rulesets (the various Epics, I mean, not 40K!
) and proxy mini suppliers that continue to pop up and add to the market, despite a few hiccups. Onslaught, DiD, Bradley, and to an extent Steel Crown and Dark Realm existed 'merely' to cater to the Epic market, though I'm glad they do, or did. That's at least five businesses for one setting and a handful of rules variations relating to it! Not to mention Shapeways and other avenues. What other 6mm sci-fi game can boast that?
Is it
just because the Epic rules are so rad, or also because we want to go burn some xenos, exterminate sone mon-keigh, have a good ol' waaagh?
That said, I'll admit inertia and stubbornness can play a part too. It's a pity, because I think those non-Epic-proxy ranges and rulesets could use more love too.
I think Hawk does well with DZC because it's also got that trifecta of rules, minis and background, though obviously in a more legitimised way than Epic's current situation. It's a brand, as Epic (the forum member) says. A one-stop shop of prepackaged elements represented by the box set, with a bunvh of marketing, 'ambassadors', and a big ol' in-scale starship up at the entrance of Salute '14. It follows in the footsteps of games like Warmachine, Infinity, Malifaux etc. which in turn tried to imitate the beats that made 40K a juggernaught.
To be honest I'm not so fond of this kind of game. For those latter three at least (I don't know what DZC's rules are like) imitating 40K seems to involve imitating wacky models and special rules bloat that gets confused with 'tactics' and 'character', and creates a kind of WYSIWYG trap where you need that specific mini to go with this specific game background and rules profile. Can't go swapping rulesets and universes. Witness folk who moan after they give up 40K rules because their 40K minis are now 'useless'.
But again, I admit, by the same token, it's a powerful hook.
When people on other forums talk about GW's flubs and the death of SGs inevitably pops up, it's said that allowed other manufacturers to flood into the kind of game niches that GW evacuated, and gain traction that way. Infinity replaced Necromunda, Firestorm Armada replaced BFG, it looks like Frostgrave eventually replaced Mordheim, and DZC replaced Epic.
Not Future War Commander.
Not Seeds of War.
Not Exodus Wars.
Not Command Horizon.
Not even Netepic or what became NetE:A.
In the minds of a lot of people 'out there', DZC is
the army scale sci-fi wargame. DZC is
the Epic. Weird, isn't it?
Epic is kind of disadvantaged in comparison because the only official minis are castoffs on ebay or elsewhere. Then again, I'm kinda glad it won't turn Epic (E:A in particular) from a well-balanced game into miniatures sales patter. In any case, I think it needs a slightly different approach.
The example of Baccus, selling army packs for certain rulesets, is a good one, and a good compromise. I think the problem there is that that the trifecta is still in effect. Baccus provides the minis, Baccus and Warlord etc. provide the rules; but, as I've said a couple of times, the background is provided by wide swathes of human history.
In 6mm sci-fi only Epic and perhaps Battletech come close to that latter. (I've no personal experience of Battletech, but I've heard a bit about the mind-boggling depth of background) Proxy sellers could maybe take a leaf out of Baccus' book and sell army packs for Epic lists, but I think they're already playing the 'provide the minis' role pretty well, almost heroically, for us few who don't believe in 'dead' games.
But what can other, non-epic-proxy, sci-fi sellers do to break out? I think they could use their own champions or ambassadors, in the vein of those popular 'box set' games, but I honestly also think they could follow Hawk's lead in another, small way, and get scribbling. Maybe that's too impractical. I don't know.
To be honest I'm not so sure about appointing epic army champions and making army packs for non-epic ranges. As said, I remember when that was tried with DRM's minis, ages ago. (I still have sketches of the Slannish [no, not Slaanesh] mesoamerican-pyramid WE proposed for the Andrayada list) For better or worse, I think you might get away with writing Epic lists for non-40K ranges to battle eachother, and you can definitely use non-GW minis to proxy Epic units, but I don't know how many people will bother with transplanting non-40K factions wholesale into the 40K universe.
(Baccus have been long rid of their own sci-fi range, too. What were the factors in that decison?)
elsmore wrote:
...yet here we are, talking about the idea like it's todays news. It turns out people like to talk about ways to organise or galvanise the community as a whole, but very few care enough to actually do anything. And if you do something it registers some vague acknowledgment, before people go back to lusting over the next model release they'll buy but never get around to painting.
Sounds a bit like a club I used to go to. I can appreciate the frustration.
(Gonna be honest though, it's news to me. I didn't even know Miniwars was a thing, before I read the last couple of pages of this topic. Where can I find out more?)
Quote:
That said, 6mm / Epic just seems to chug along happily without any grand plan to organise or raise awareness. Just a fringe product in the small war gaming market, I guess.
The question is, is that small fringe in the overall small wargaming market, still one of the most high-profile and played games in the even smaller 6mm sci-fi segment, despite only 'chugging along'?
Apocolocyntosis wrote:
If they do find taccom it's a mess to navigate, and they then have to post to ask to be point to
http://www.net-armageddon.org/ or miniwars etc
I know it's been a while since I posted here with any kind of regularity, and even then I didn't contribute a huge amount, so maybe I've got a bit of 'outsider' hanging over me and my posts. But in coming back and trying to engage with the forum again, I can see what Apoc means. And since he's opened the floodgate: for one thing, to navigate back and forth, I have to scroll right back to the top, squint, and try to whack my finger on the touchscreen on just the right part of that tiny grey-on-grey navigation bar.
Then, I know this place is centred around 6mm sci-fi, especially Epic, but I think it's chopped up into too many highly specific boards: first chopped up into a lot of 6mm or otherwise small-scale sci-fi games, including a lot of those that get little love. (not to pick on Polyversal, but it's board here has three topics and no guarantee of any more. And for that matter, where's DZC's board...? ; ) ) Then chopped up for a few more games and genres, then chopped up according to miniature scale, then chopped up according to manufacturer.
But I think that specificity actually creates confusion, and is ignored anyway. If you want to talk about KR 16, do you go to 'General Science Fiction Wargames' or would you get more attention in Angel Barracks' specific board? Why is there a single wargames board, containing subforums for games like Flames of War, seperated from aaall the other wargames boards by the Scale and Miniature Lines boards? Timeline 300 is the only game with a specific board under Steampunk and VSF, despite no posts for about six months (though fair enough, Ben is a huge part of this community) but TMG itself, and the arguably more popular DiD range, has no board under the Miniatures Lines banner, just a couple of threads in the Creating Miniatures board!
I don't know what I'd find (or wouldn't find) if I tried digging deeper. I don't immediately know how to fix it to greater satisfaction, beyond the realisation that a lot of stuff could be condensed and maybe reshuffled.
But - and sorry to keep harping on about it - if we're lamenting about the unpopularity and lack of exposure of other 6mm, then for the luvva Mike at least
let other 6mm into the 6mm board! Not stuck away under a 'miscellaneous garbage' title like a red-headed stepchild. Maybe it's old hat to everyone here, but I never went into that board very much. I come here for the 6mm and other forums mostly keep my attention for other scales; but I've often wondered why the 6mm board seemed to be Epic-only, and if people here bothered with anything else. Now I know it's pushed to one side like some kind of illegitimate not-6mm, and that mentality I mentioned - of folk ring-fencing their games and minis - seems to apply here too, in some way.
I know I'm making a meal of this, but seriously, how d'you think it'd seem to other 'outsiders', or even those manufacturers of non-epic 6mm (and some epic 6mm!), to see their perfectly good 6mm minis pushed into the 'Other' pigeonhole, while the 6mm board is unofficially reserved for just one game and setting? What kind of impression is that creating?
I'm sorry, I know it's no easy task to organise and run a web forum, but I think I'd go crazy if I try to think about how this place works.
So...
Well...
I'm off to buy a copy of Laserstorm.
